Author Topic: [0006] Best Post of 2013 - Engine & Gearbox, Strip & Rebuild  (Read 18337 times)

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Online MartinW

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This post has been chosen by the Moderator Team as being the best Technical Post of 2013. Our thanks to mjc506 for recording his rebuild last Summer.
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This post has been cut down to just the main technical inputs. The link below will take you to the full story in the original post.

========================================================================


Summary: A detailed description of a full engine strip down and rebuild.
The original post was made by mjc506 and can be found here.



So... after a great week oop norf, the bike behaved perfectly until ~100miles from home on the way back.

M1 southbound, and I flash a truck across into my lane to let someone join off the sliproad. I shift into 4th to accelerate away again, and then discover I can't shift into 5th! Can't get into 3rd either, so I stop at the next services to see if I can free it up. (sidenote: manoeuvring an overloaded strom through a carpark is difficult in 4th)

The lever moves a little up and down, but stops dead just before it should click up and down the gearbox. The clutch is fine, actuates nicely, and locks/opens fine (and feels 'right'). Rotating the back wheel back and forth while trying to shift makes no difference, and I can't feel anything moving internally while I do.

So I give up, and decide to get back home in 4th. I make it out of the services and onto the motorway fine, but as I take my exit, I have to get round a roundabout, then go up a steep hill. Riding the clutch this hard to get going overheats it, and I now have no real power. The RAC rescue me this time <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->

So I've cooked the clutch, and something's up with the gearbox. I've not found any reports of gearbox problems for the DL650 or the sv650 that match my symptoms (although there's an sv report that's close) but I'm hoping I can see/fix the problem just by taking the clutch and gen covers off!

Current plan is to open it up, check/service/fix the clutch, and see what I can see around the gearbox before I do any more. Where's best to get a 'pack' to service the clutch? And I can't find which gaskets I need, but found mention of people using a liquid gasket... is this as good?

Ta <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
Tall, Dark and Handsome (In 1987) - Just tall now !!

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Offline Jacko

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2013, 20:23:40 »
That does not sound good. Are you sure your gear lever linkages haven't seized?  This can sometimes make gear selection difficult. I was checking mine today and it appears as if Suzuki don't grease them at all as mine were shiny new and bone dry..

Offline Juvecu

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2013, 21:30:57 »
+1 for starting with the gear selection linkages. It's an easy job that doesn't need opening anything up. I had a similar issues, but I got stuck in 3rd gear (IIRC) and had to shift very hard to get into any other gear. I also have trouble shifting if my oil level gets low, but it's not the same thing as what you're describing.
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Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2013, 07:38:14 »
Yup, gear linkages are (unfortunately) fine. I needed to pull the clutch side anyway to check how many plates I cooked, and it looks like I can play with most of the mechanism without going much further (according to the manual)

Pics to follow :)
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline Strommer

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2013, 09:50:21 »
Is the clutch cable cage rotating?  I've had grit enter mine and seize it solid meaning I am stuck in a single gear.  Same goes for grit in the cable or a split cable jamming the cable run.


A disgrace to biking...

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2013, 10:47:04 »
Yeah, I really don't want to drop the engine if I can help it!

The clutch is working fine I'm afraid (apart from the cooked plates).

Pics as promised:

Burnt clutch plate (bad pic, sorry)


Non-burnt plate(s)


Clutch basket (which I now need to remove)


What I can see of the mechanism



So tonight's job is to buy a 27mm socket, remove the clutch basket and have a closer look. As it's stuck in gear, I can just lock the back wheel and not worry about holding the generator rotor with the 'special tool' :) Hmm, need to find my circlip pliers as well, and get some decent cleaner...

oh, and the front sprocket is nearly gone too, so a new C&S kit is on the cards :)
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2013, 11:35:28 »
No problem! The bike has undoubtedly seen a little abuse under me (and my pillion, and luggage) and I have no real idea what the previous owner done to it, so I don't mind pulling it apart - it gives me chance to check things, and photos are always helpful. :)

With any luck, I'll get the clutch completely out of the way tonight and at least be able to see the problem. I've still got to order clutch parts and gaskets, but will hopefully get a single complete order together!

More photos, and a diagnosis to follow :)
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2013, 21:11:54 »
Fuckityarsebugger ###

Clutch basket removed


This is what I was expecting to be broken. Note the long bolt in the middle. On Gixxers and some SV's, this has backed out, letting the star cam move in relation to the shift barrel. Not in this case, although there is some wear on it.


All the selector mechanism gone


But the problem still remains. The barrel will move a little, but not enough to change gear. Something's nadgered inside :bawl:

So I've got to drop the engine and split the cases. But to split the cases I think I need to remove the heads/pistons/magic elves/etc... not looking forward to that.
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2013, 22:32:42 »
Yeah, I've been doing the research, thanks for looking though :)

I'm pretty certain the problem is either something to do with either part 3 below (shift fork 3-4 gear), assy 7 (or it's bearings maybe? unlikely - the rotational limit is hard and consistent) or the actual gears/dogs in the gearbox somehow stuck together. As I understand it, the gear selector barrel should spin in either direction with little resistance (with the rear wheel turning) between gear 1 and 6.


One thing I did notice...parts 4 and 5 slide sideways in the crankcase easily (I can see/touch them through holes in the crankcase). Maybe that's required to let the forks move back and forth easily, but there also appears to be a little radial play too (not that I can tell particularly well), Steel tube rattling around in an cast aluminium case sounds bad news to me? Perhaps there's a steel bushing inside I can't see yet. :shrug: That they (parts 4 and 5) move back and forth easily suggests to me that the shifting forks have not seized on these runners.

This thread seems to suggest that I may not need to replace much, but...
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline Strommer

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2013, 08:31:13 »
Assy 7 was the bit I was referring to.  It's worth making sure that moves freely before dismantling other stuff.  It's easy to clean if the ball bearings are stuck.  Less easy to put back together though....


A disgrace to biking...

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2013, 12:00:26 »
Yes, assy 7 does not move freely, but I can't see any way of accessing it without splitting the cases? The ball bearing I can see looks fine, the needle bearing internally I can't see, and could be the cause of failure, but it doesn't 'feel' right.
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2013, 07:33:22 »
OK, stripped the wee last night, while I'm waiting for certain tools.

Start with 1 (one) wee, in a completely clean and tidy work area :shy:

Yeah, you'll see that I've already removed the clutch cover.

Remove plastics...


..radiator... (check out the paint flapping around inside the inlet! Where's the rest of it gone?...)


..and tank


You'll also need to remove the pannier racks (if fitted) to access the exhaust mounting bolts:


Next is the exhaust. I was surprised - not all the bolts were welded on! The front cylinder allen bolts came out fairly happily, and the lump of rust at the bottom of the front header grew 6 sides and also came out without too many problems. The top/rear exhaust hanger bolt is a pain (both of those are bolts/nuts) as it has no access to the nut behind it, and the bottom nut/bolt (captive nut?) next to the footpeg might need drilling, but much better than I expected!

More to follow...
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2013, 16:38:22 »
Waiting for a sodding tool :angry-tappingfoot: which should have turned up today but it hasn't :GRR:

That's just to remove the generator rotor, at which point I can split the cases and start putting it back together.

However... I have found some metal in there... two pieces - one I can see but can't get to or shake out, and that's a part of either a shift fork or one of the gear dogs. The other is a small bit of crankcase, which makes a pocket for the front camchain tensioner to sit in :bawl: I don't know if the two are related, and if so which caused which, but they've both Got to be fixed!
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2013, 19:36:26 »
Aye, pics have been taken, but I missed a few steps, so I'll take a few more as I'm rebuilding and get a decent report together :)

If anyone's interested, I've got a public G+ album here.
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2013, 21:56:59 »
So today, I split the cases :lala: ...and my thumb and finger :limp: (those crankcases are sharp!)

But to carry on where I left off (it seems ages ago)

Removing the exhaust: I actually didn't take many pictures of this. It went surprisingly well! All the bolts apart from two were removed without issue - the ones that caused problems were the rearmost hanger bolt and it's nut (with no access), and the bolt down by the rh footrest - this has a square captive nut, but it's locktited, and its cage is made out of chocolate. In the end, both of these were sawn off, to be replaced with nice SS bolts/nuts when rebuilding.

The get the exhaust off, I did have to bend/remove the bash plate rear mount, but after that, a few blows with a rubber mallet/boot had it free and off the bike!


Now, remove the airbox:


and the throttle bodies (and all the tubes/wires connected to the engine - follow the service manual here, or you'll miss something):


Another part of the process I didn't photograph :( Remove all the engine mounting bolts, and become perplexed as to why it hasn't fallen out onto your foot. :shrug: Then notice the two compression bolts. These have locknuts (same tool as the swingarm bolt locknut), and then you'll be presented with something smooth and round that you have to unscrew! These bolts do actually have 6 tiny flats on them, but I didn't have anything the right size to undo them. Solution: remove the LH engine hanger (again, this came off OK, no seized bolts!) and keep lifting/lowering the engine until it comes free of the rear compression bolt. This will be to be loosened for re-assembly. The complete engine weighs ~55kg... use a jack if you have one!

You now have a complete engine. Remove all the hoses etc from it, and you'll end up with this:


My PAIR valves has a slight carbon deposit... they will need replacing


Remove the head cover (from here, all the bolts are decent steel, and come out happily)




set the front piston to TDC (If you've already removed the generator cover like I had, you can still align the timing marks with a mark on the LH crankcase). Not essential, but makes removing the camshafts less 'springy'...


Remove the camchain guide. Then remove the camshaft journals. On removing the bolts, pressurised air/water came spraying out from under the bolts! Only tiny amounts, but it has been reported before. Weird.


Pull the camshafts :)


From here, it's all fairly obvious. Remove the heads:


Careful to grab the gaskets too!


and the cylinders! (both pistons are caked in carbon - I thought they'd be cleaner to be honest)




The pistons come off easily (apart from that the 'circlip' mentioned in the service manual isn't a normal circlip - more of a spring clip)


Then do it alllll again to the rear piston.

Crankshaft :)


Piston:




You now have this:


Continue following the service manual. Remove the oil pump (it looks like this:)


and remove all the gears you can. The next step is where I got stuck for several days - removing the generator rotor. Once the tool (essentially a M20x1.5 threaded bolt. There are two other places on the bike that use this thread - the output sprocket shaft, which you can't use until the cases are split; and the oil fill plug. Don't be a muppet like me and try the oil fill plug. It's plastic, and will be ruined...)


The difficulty is tightening the puller, while holding the crankshaft dead still, and with your third arm, holding the engine down. If you don't hold the crankshaft still, the camchain(s) can get caught up and do this: :bawl: (at least, that's how I assumed this happened)


That pocket should hold the cam chain tensioner. In this case I think I'm going to try JB weld, as a new crankcase pair (not available separately) is £1800.... I can get an engine for less than that!

The reason for trying to remove the generator rotor is to get to these two bolts:


but you don't actually have to remove the rotor to get to them. I removed the starter motor (2x 8mm bolts, plus a few blows from 'das mallet') and wiggled the starter idler gear and its shaft out.


servicable? or not even worth it?


Now you can get to (and remove) these bolts. Careful here - they're tight, and one they loosen, I caught my thumb and finger between my ratchet and the edge of the crankcase - it's really sharp, and cut quite deep.




You can then remove all the other bolts (highlighted by the service manual)

Now for the fun part. I was expecting this to be a really difficult bit, but it was actually easy. The Laser crankcase separating tool is worth every penny :thumb:


Set up the separator like the image above, and slowly tighten the central bolt. You'll hear a clunk, and half the crankcase will have separated.


Now move the tool over to the clutch shaft and do the same (once the gasket between the crankcases is broken, the clutch shaft sticks in its bearing, so you will need to drive it all the way through with the crankcase separator)

Separated!!!!


Check the condition of the oil mesh:




It's worth giving the crankcases and all the bearings a good once over too.

Now. The gearbox.


Remove the shift forks and their shafts


And pull out the shift barrel (it's heavier than it looks)


Check out the bits I found in the bottom of the crankcase...


You can then tap out the sprocket shaft, and remove the gearbox from the engine (don't drop the washers)


Driving gear 4th:


Dissasembly is straight forward, though requires circlip pliers with small 'prongs'


These pictures are of the failed part:






I need to get some better photographs, but in the flesh you can see the normal dull grey failure surface, but also a shiny area surrounding a hard lump. It looks like this was a material defect. The other dog just has the dull grey surface, I imagine it got hit pretty hard! Amazingly, it looks like there's no other damage! I'll take another look tomorrow in better light (and concentration) but it should be a reasonably short body count :)

The only thing I'm now concerned about is the broken cam chain tensioner pocket. I don't think there's a huge amount of force on it, and JB weld should hold, but if it does fail it could be fairly catastrophic. I'm not sure if I broke it by getting the camchain caught up (I was careful, but...) or if it did get hit by a fragment of gearbox, but either way it needs fixing, rather than replacing. I'll phone around to see if there are any alu welders than can do it first.
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2013, 10:39:28 »
The two bigger broken bits came from the driven(?) 4th gear dogs. These should slot in to an adjacent gear and provide drive, but one broke (and took another with it).

Here's some better photos:




Note the shiny smooth area on the left surrounding that hard nodule. That's where the failure started!


Further round the crack surface, you can see 'growth lines', indicating it wasn't a sudden failure. I count ~100 of these lines, so that's ~100 revolutions, or roughly a second @6000rpm... Also note the largish smooth (but dull) area on the far top-right. This was the final crack. You can also just about see the case hardening here.


Here's the second failed dog site. Nothing too exciting here - it's a simple sudden brittle fracture caused by being clouted by the first failed dog!


All those years studying bits of broken metal have paid off :haha: It is a bit worrying that it was a material defect that caused this, as there may be more out there. I'm incredibly lucky that the dogs stayed stuck in the driven gear - if they had fallen out and become jammed in the gearbox, my pillion and I would be smeared down the M1 and some truck's undercarriage, and it's unlikely anyone would have known what had happened :shock:

All the other gears have no impact marks (or any other strange marks) on them, so I should be OK. I will be replacing the surrounding gears anyway, and if I can find someone with an x-ray machine I'll get the others checked too. (might be worth just replacing the whole gearbox)
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2013, 11:05:12 »
heh, I'm half considering sending them to Suzuki (I want to keep the actual gear as a souvenir if I can haha) but I'm sure they'd want the real thing to do any real analysis on it.

That said, they probably wouldn't care - one failure out of how-many-thousands isn't bad going :)
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2013, 23:00:29 »
Arsebiscuits. Just found out the bits I've ordered won't be here for at least 2 weeks. Some fairly vital parts are on back order :bawl:

I'm bike sick :violin: At least it gives me a little while to play with a few other tweaks :shrug:
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2013, 11:44:50 »
Finally some progress!

I used my new tool to press the old journal bearings out. I was expecting this to be a complete arse, but it wasn't too bad!


Next, fit the new journal bearings into the other part of the tool, and tighten up the screw a touch (not as tight as possible, just 'wrist tight')


Heat up the casting (every little helps) and smother the surfaces with engine oil


I didn't take photos here, as I was terrified of it all going wrong! Place the ring containing the new bearings over the hole, aligning the split between the bearings with the marking on the casting. Now use the other part of the tool to press the bearings from the ring into the casting - this keeps everything straight and aligned.

Done!


After that, I started cleaning all the bits up. The crankcases are coming up nicely just with Muc-off.

I'm a bit worried about the carbon build up on the pistons and PAIR valves, although everything else (cylinders, heads, spark plugs) was clean and looking good :shrug:



PAIR valves will be replaced, pistons will be cleaned.
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2013, 09:41:19 »
Honestly, once you get past the 'omfg this is terrifying' stage (the worst bit for me was unplugging all the hoses and cables and dropping it out of the frame), it's just a case of taking off a few bolts, and pulling a part off. Yes, you can break things if you're a clutz (like me, I forgot to keep the camchain tight while removing the primary drive gear) but anything can be fixed, and if you're slow and methodical and triple check everything, it's not particularly difficult. :)

I'm nearly at the stage where I can start putting it all back together! The crankcase needs a final clean (I need a high pressure jet of cleaner I think), then I can start reassembly.

I put together the gearbox last night (no photos, it was fiddly, but straightforward), and then gave in to my desires and chucked it in the crankcase for a test fit (Got to make sure I put it back together correctly, right? :haha: ) and was mortified when it locked up and would spin or shift! Turns out the countershaft runs on a spring washer, which needs to be compressed for it to mesh properly, so I put the crankcase halves together, and it now spins and shifts nicely. I'll now have to split the cases again, but that wasn't difficult.

 :lala:
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]