Author Topic: [0006] Best Post of 2013 - Engine & Gearbox, Strip & Rebuild  (Read 18338 times)

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Offline Juvecu

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2013, 20:22:42 »
If assembly lube was used then I wouldn't worry about it myself. Start it up and just watch that the oil light goes out sharpish.
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Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2013, 21:34:57 »
Didn't feel like much progress tonight, just another few coats on the engine. Also looked at both radiators... new ones required I think :bawl: but that can wait until I find a bargain. :)

Still not happy with this photo. but it's better than the others.


One more can tomorrow (hmm, if I get up really early I can do a few coats before work...) then fit it to the bike, book an MOT, cross fingers... :auto-dirtbike:
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline mr_diver

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2013, 22:05:23 »
SV650 oil cooler is the same as the strom, mine is an SV650 one after a large stone put pay to it a while back.
Part number stamped on it is even the same.

cost me about £45 off ebay, fair condition, and had an after market stainless cover.
that reminds me, needs a little coat of paint.

engine is looking good there mate!



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Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2013, 22:32:26 »
Good shout on the oil cooler Mr Diver, thanks :) I'll keep an eye out. I think half the problem is that the stock guard thingy was long gone when I bought it! The bash plate did help, but...

The engine looks great in the flesh (in my opinion at least) :)

Thanks Gassoon :) Got to be honest, "next time" (I hope not), I'd hire some garage space!
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2013, 12:51:39 »
Ideally, yeah, I would, but I don't want to get it running then have to switch it off - it'll need a decent run to start bedding everything in. And the only way I can (legally) give it a run at the moment is on the way to a booked MoT :( I hate stupid laws like that.

The place I'm hoping to use is good though, so I'm hoping they don't mind too much if they get a call tomorrow telling them that it's not running and I'll be late haha
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2013, 22:20:24 »
Engine in, exhaust on, no photos though, sorry!
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2013, 11:03:10 »
Well, the good news is that it didn't explode into a shower of burning shrapnel :)

Had a few set-backs yesterday, so I gave up and went to see my girlfriend. Hence no news :haha:

Got up early, and set about putting it all back together. Everything going smoothly, fitted the throttlebodies and airbox with new filter etc. Filled the new oil filter with oil (halfrauds finest dinosaur goop), spun it on, then filled the engine up. I could feel my knees getting wet, at which point I remembered to put the oil drain plugs back in :GRR: The second attempt saw the engine holding oil though, which was a good start :)

Somehow managed to route all the cables and hoses, and get everything plugged in. Filled the radiator up with coolant (should've used distilled water to start with, ah well) and no leaks to report.

Got all the plastics on, and forgot to take a photo (I'm now a touch nervous). Get the keys, double check everything, switch the ignition on, and....

nothing.

Next, I fitted the battery and tried again :shy: Weird. Headlights off, sidelights on, and all the indicators on (dimly). Pressing the hazards made the indicators, sidelights and abs light flash. :shrug:

So off come the plastics. I try other buttons on the handlebars to see what happens. Flashers don't work, hazards and indicators do that weird flashing thing, BEEEP OK, the horn works, and then suddenly everything whirs to life! Apart from the fuel pump, as the tank's on the ground next to the bike. Still, life!

Put everything back on the bike, switch it on again, whir buzz.... CHEC arse. It's 11am, and the MoT is booked for 12, so I call the garage and cancel it. Sidestand switch is OK, it's in neutral (and the N light's on), killswitch is off... Ah, but the rhs handlebar switches are unplugged!

next attempt: Whirrrr bzzz... right, everything looks good. I hold my breath, pull the clutch, squeeze the front brake (just in case), cover the killswitch, and press the starter. It turns over! Then stops. Try again - CLUNK. Arse. Try again, CLUNK. CLUNK.

Can't have seized already can it?! Switch off, open up the generator access port thingy, and I can turn the engine over by hand (with a ratchet). So the engine's fine. Everything between the starter switch and the solenoid is fine, 'cos I can hear it clunk. Power is getting to the solenoid too... so everything should be fine.

Right, double check everything. Most likely dead thing is the solenoid. To test that, simply short out the two large terminals! So I put my welding gloves on and pick up a 1/2" spanner. Lots of sparks, but the bike turns over! So I pull the solenoid out and bench test it. It's fine, no problems :angry-tappingfoot: Put it back in, turn the ignition on, pull the clutch, front brake, and press the button.

It turns over! and makes me jump, so I let go :haha: Right, again! It starts! :lala:

and dies :bawl: OK, it didn't stop with any horrible noises, it just sort of slowed and stalled. That's alright - lots of friction, not much oil yet, and it hasn't been run for two and a half months(!). I need to hold it at ~2500rpm anyway to get the oil pump working, so... try again, with more throttle!

It runs! :lala: noisy, as there's no oil, but my overfill/turn by hand/drain technique a few nights ago may have helped as it as quietens off within a few seconds :lala:

Still doesn't sound too good though. Almost as if it's running on one cylinder, but not quite. No FI errors showing (it's in dealer mode), but it won't idle, and WOT feels veerrryy sluggish. Killswitch, stops. Front cylinder is warm/hot to touch, but the rear cylinder is only warm. (but not cold)

So... it runs, with no 'mechanical interface' noises, so that's good. (Actually, that's f*cking great :) ) But it's running poorly, and sounds more like a steam engine than a v-strom. That'll be valve related then. Clearances, timing, or just leaking?

I'm fairly certain it's not the clearances, as I re-done the camshafts/timing a few times getting the clearances right with new shims. And they were in spec as I put the covers on.

Timing I done a few times, and I'm pretty sure I got it right. However... it is certainly a possibility. If its out, its not far out (see, 'no mechanical interface noises' above :) )

Leaking valves... could be. When I turn the engine over by hand with that ratchet, its not particularly difficult, and I could convince myself that I hear air hissing out. Thing is, the heads were taken care of - as soon as they came off, they were wrapped in clingfilm with some silica gel, and put away in a box inside. I didn't try cleaning them (it was running fine before the gear fell apart), as I was trying not to disturb anything. Admittedly, I also didn't check them much.

So. Bad news - it's not a living breathing motorcycle quite yet. It still needs an MoT, and I'll need to open the engine up again.

Good news - it runs, and isn't eating itself from the inside yet. All the electrics are (now) OK. The work I'll need to do on the engine shouldn't require removing it from the frame, so that's a bit easier.

I completely failed at getting photographs I'm afraid (the black engine looks smart on the bike. I did scratch it a bit getting it into the frame, but I kept some paint spare for touch ups :) ) but here's some I took before.

Engine on the bench:


Radiator, oil cooler, and thermostat painted hammerite gloss black. (Gloss was a mistake - satin or matt would look better)


The engine paint I used (recommended - it goes on nicely with good coverage, cures in 24hrs, and becomes solvent and impact resistant after a 'low' temperature bake. A hair dries seems to work. Engine oil doesn't touch it, even pre-baked. Petrol makes it soft pre-bake, but doesn't do much after)


Painting the bottom of the engine, and the sprocket cover


and on the bench, ready to fit!
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2013, 21:44:16 »
Back to the [s:2elxbneu]workshop[/s:2elxbneu] garden today :)
The electrical problems may have been due to a weird flaky earth connection up by the dash. Likely to have been that solenoid stuck too though, but to be fair, it had sat in the garden in bits for a while...

Tank, airbox, plastics, throttlebodies, etc off, valve covers open


At this point, I dropped a bolt down the back of the engine, and in the process of fishing it out, I saw the rear exhaust bolt (the clamp between the rear cylinder and main exhaust) was loose. That'll be the hissing I could hear then :) (thank you bolt) I'd forgotten to tighten it during installation.

Took the front header off too.


and here we have our problem... I'd fitted the rear cams 180deg out of sync! I must have turned the engine over once too many when swapping from the front to rear cylinder :shy: Still, at least it was 180deg out, rather than 90deg out...

If the engine was on the bench, fixing this would be a 5 minute job. On the bike however, the rear cam chain tensioner is an arse to get to. The easier solution would be to change the front cylinder timings, but I didn't think of that. Here's my solution:

This monstrosity actually worked!
(side question - how does the ECM know when to spark/inject fuel? It has a crankshaft position sensor, but for any particular crank position, the cams could be in either of two positions, for example, compression or exhaust, intake or power. How does the ECM know which is which? )

Next, I put it all back together :) No video, sorry. But it starts easy, and runs really well :) :lala: especially considering everything's tight in there!

And here's two dodgy photos showing this fantastic machine back to its normal self (and a sexy engine :haha: )




WoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :auto-dirtbike:
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2013, 22:05:05 »
Thanks all :) Needless to say, the plan for tomorrow is fit those stickers :) , get the mot done, then run it all in (with a few oil changes thrown in for good measure) haha
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline mr_diver

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2013, 22:17:25 »
well mate, that's an ambitious job done very well and methodically.

when you started this post I thought it was going to be another, look my bike wasn't 100% and I broke it more, anyone want to buy the bits, type of thing.

But you have made it an interesting, informative and inspiring thread to read. I'm sure now some will be saying "hell if he can do that in his garden with no shed/garage to work in then I can damn well change the oil and filter next week!"

Well done mate and I'm glad she's all better.

PS Don't fancy doing my valve clearance anytime soon... I really can't be arsed, it was such a faff I haven't done it since 14.5k lol Joking



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Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2013, 22:24:12 »
Well, I do have some spares to sell :haha:

I was considering writing it up into a neat little document, but I'm sort of tempted just to leave this thread as it is... I'd hope that no-one else has to go through all of that, and the various comments along the way are more helpful to a googler than would be imagined :)

What I will do is work out what special tools I had/used/needed and set up a 'lending library' of sorts. I'm thinking the owner keeps the tool, and anyone who needs it pays postage both ways plus a refundable deposit to discourage losses...

I'd also be happy to assist how I can if any strommer is facing disassembling their engine.  Give me a PM, I'll see what I can do!
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline Juvecu

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2013, 23:53:05 »
The crucial bit is the first 20 miles. Mineral oil only, up and down through the rev range using engine braking and then drop the oil. No pootling around or screaming the ears off it, but don't take it too easy either. You get the idea anyway :)
Members Map                                                    Juv's Strom "Restoration" (sold to Mad Phil)
Juv & Locky's Morocco Trip Report                   Juv's Blog

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2013, 08:55:12 »
Yeah, they're well aware of the bike's history :) Good bike garage in Aylesbury: DWR Motorcycles
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline iansoady

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2013, 10:45:43 »
Quote from: "mjc506"
(side question - how does the ECM know when to spark/inject fuel? It has a crankshaft position sensor, but for any particular crank position, the cams could be in either of two positions, for example, compression or exhaust, intake or power. How does the ECM know which is which? )

I remember asking this question on the Tiger forum and the answer I was given was that the ECU actually saw the crank speeding up and slowing down as it reached compression and was able to deduce which cylinder was reaching compression from this. This was cited as the reason why most triples actually turn over a couple of times before firing.

I have to say it didn't convince me then either.......
Ian.
2005 DL650
1931 Sunbeam Model 10

Offline greywolf

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2013, 16:38:02 »
I suspect the ECM doesn't "know" but supplies a wasted spark on the exhaust stroke. A wasted spark was used on all the old Honda fours and many other engines.

This isn't about using one coil to fire more than one cylinder, but rather an electronic control module using the crankshaft position sensor along with other sensors to time a spark. If there is no sensor to differentiate between compression and exhaust stroke, the ECM may fire the plug at both cycles.
Pat- 2007 DL650A was ridden to all 48 contiguous states. 2012 DL650A outlasted me.
Nicknames I use to lessen typing, Vee = 2002-2012 (K2-L2) DL1000s. Veek=2014+ (L4+) DL1000s. Wee = 2004-2011 (K4-L1) DL650s. Glee = 2012+ (L2+) DL650s

Offline greywolf

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2013, 17:20:12 »
Quote from: "Jacko"
Makes sense, halves the life of the plugs though. :D
Maybe that's why the plug replacement schedule is so ridiculously short. Anyway, the effect on the plug of igniting the mixture is much greater than throwing a spark in an exhaust stroke. I wouldn't put the additional wear at anything approaching half.
Pat- 2007 DL650A was ridden to all 48 contiguous states. 2012 DL650A outlasted me.
Nicknames I use to lessen typing, Vee = 2002-2012 (K2-L2) DL1000s. Veek=2014+ (L4+) DL1000s. Wee = 2004-2011 (K4-L1) DL650s. Glee = 2012+ (L2+) DL650s

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2013, 20:52:30 »
Yeah, wasted spark is pretty common. I'd more interested in the injection side of things :)

Today, I passed an MoT :)

...and emptied a fuel tank through the main rear drain port :)

I don't know if it's faded memory, but the Wee feels smooth, predictable, and more powerful than before? It's loosened up nicely, sounds fantastic, and I've still got a silly grin on my face :grin:

By the end of the week I should be back onto synthetic oil, and running in will be pretty much complete :lala:
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]

Offline Juvecu

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #57 on: August 13, 2013, 13:01:52 »
The way I understand it: for fuel injection it's more a case of how long the injectors stay open rather then when exactly they open. As long as there is enough fuel to suck in when the intake valves open it's all fine :) At idle the injectors only open for milliseconds, at full revs they can be open 80%+ of the time. Engines with both crank and cam sensors can be more accurate with the "when", if needed.
Members Map                                                    Juv's Strom "Restoration" (sold to Mad Phil)
Juv & Locky's Morocco Trip Report                   Juv's Blog

Offline greywolf

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #58 on: August 13, 2013, 13:37:32 »
Quote from: "Juvecu"
The way I understand it: for fuel injection it's more a case of how long the injectors stay open rather then when exactly they open.
Right. The fuel pressure to the injectors is constant. At 43psi, a bypass valve in the pump starts to open and delivers excess fuel back into the tank. Since the pressure is constant, the amount of fuel fed to the combustion chambers is determined by how long the ECM holds the injectors open. The ECM takes information from the sensors to determine how long to hold the injectors open.
Pat- 2007 DL650A was ridden to all 48 contiguous states. 2012 DL650A outlasted me.
Nicknames I use to lessen typing, Vee = 2002-2012 (K2-L2) DL1000s. Veek=2014+ (L4+) DL1000s. Wee = 2004-2011 (K4-L1) DL650s. Glee = 2012+ (L2+) DL650s

Offline mjc506

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Re: Stuck in gear?
« Reply #59 on: August 13, 2013, 14:27:24 »
Good point. I'm a retard :) I rebuilt the thing and I was still imagining injectors in the combustion chamber :doh: I guess there's a pretty big volume of air between the injectors and valve seats to hold fuel vapour/air in, especially at those sorts of speeds/frequencies.

I need help again.... where do I stick this fantastic gel domed sticker that Mr Rat sent me? My first though was on the top of the tank, but I'm kind of holding out for a v-strom.co.uk tank protector :shy:

Video as requested :)
Projects:
DL650 engine rebuild: Complete!
Brighter rear indicators]Complete![/url]
Heated mirrors]Complete![/url]
Cruise control/Speed limiter/V-puter]Pending...[/color]