Cracking Up

[JonStrom]

No, not me! (Although contrary opinions have been expressed...)

Anyway, this is about my tyres. Went on to Metzelers a year or so back. Very happy with grip in dry/wet and they last really well too. (10-12k rear, 12-15k front)  

BUT, the front has developed cracks, mostly along the inner edge of the outer tread blocks. Not just one or two - all of 'em, both sides.  They go to a depth of 1-2mm, back under the tread block, (not down into the tyre) The cracks look like they are threatening to join up to create two continous lines around the circumference of the tyre. This is a normal Metzeler Tourance front. About 12k miles and one a year old. It's probably got another 3k in it, tread-wise.

There is nothing odd about the handling. No indication it's about to fail dramatically. I'm just worried that at 120mph plus (on an autobahn, of course), bits of tyre are going to start peeling off...  

Should I be worried? Anyone else seen similar?  

 

[Juvecu]

I wouldn't be comfortable riding with a tyre like that myself. You've had plenty of miles from them so you should consider changing it IMHO. It would be interesting to know what Metzeler have to say about that. It might be a good idea to send them the pictures and to ask what they think the cause is.

[doublevodka]

yeah would definitely recommend changing them, don't want a tyre peeling apart at speed that would be very bad!

[KLV-Rider]

My Conti Trail Attacks are doing a similar thing!! No idea why....mine do get a tough life!  

[scep]

They're delaminating - replace them asap. Might be a bad batch but whatever the reason no sense in taking risks.

Note: The only reason not to change a tyre is the cost. So, from a money p.o.v. you've "lost" 3k miles by replacing early. For a say £75 tyre you've "lost" 3/15*75 = £15.  Why risk your life for 15 quid?     Get it changed!  

[JonStrom]

Thanks for the comments.

Yes I quite agree the tyre needs replacing. It was only on close inspection last weekend that I discovered how bad it is. My reason for posting was whether anyone else had seen this happen - like KLV_Rider. And whether anyone knows what causes it - Scep, apart from a bad batch, do you know of any other reasons for this delaminating?

Meanwhile, I have emailed Metzeler and sent them the photos. I got a reply too, in which they say: "Please take the tyre back to where purchased and they will fill in a inspection form with you and the tyre will then be collected from them to be taken to the inspection department."

Further investigation and I have found a recall notice on the Metzeler website: http://www.metzelermoto.co.uk/web/TouranceRecall_UK_en.page While the recall doesn't apply to my tyre, the symptoms are identical: "The affected tyres could suffer tread block tearing..."Although they underplay the possible consequences: "...which on some occasions could lead to the separation of some blocks, causing a sudden and unexpected vibration of the motorcycle"

I think they mean "...sudden and unexpected vibration of the motorcycle, which could lead to loss of control, serious injury or death"

Tyres replaced under the recall are paid for by Metzeler because "....these tyres do not consistently meet the optimum Metzeler quality-specifications which guarantee safe tyre performance". I have emailed back and asked them who's paying for my replacement tyre. You never know...

Will keep you posted

[putbinoot]

Make sure you get them to pay for your tyres, the fact that they are worn is nothing to do with the fault. If they try to get out of it which some big companys do, just ask them if they want the name Metzeler synonymous with poor customer care and faulty tyres.

[scep]

I suspect a bad batch I.e. summat went wrong in the manufacturing process or the rubber itself not to spec or QA let them through when they shouldn't have.... but they are not fit for purpose whatever so by rights you are entitled to your money back. OF course, they are likely to say that you've caned them for 50000 miles, been riding your bike sideways, too many stoppies etc etc.    Good luck!

[JonStrom]

No reply from Metzeler on my enquiry of whether they are willing to discuss paying for the replacement front tyre.  

Well s*d 'em then! While Metzeler tyres are good, their customer relations are cr*p... They have just lost a good customer, maybe more than one when up to 900 forum members read of my experience.  

I need a new rear anyway (worn out, not falling apart) and the "lost mileage" on the front is only worth about £15 (thanks Scep) So I'm getting a pair of Anakee 2's fitted tomorrow... Dr.Jekyll rates them: http://www.v-strom.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4045

I'll let you know how I get on.  

[JonStrom]

If anyone is interested in reading through loads of email, here is the b*llsh*t I have had from Metzeler so far... Does anyone else think they are crap at communication and I have been very very patient?

Sent: 02/06/2010 14.35.08
To: http://www.intanexus.com/Jon/V-strom/100_2065sm.jpg http://www.intanexus.com/Jon/V-strom/100_2066sm.jpg
 
Your comments would be most welcome.
 
Best Regards
Jon


From: webmaster.uk@metzelermoto.com
Subject: RE: Cracks in Front Tyre

Hi,
 
Thank you for your reply.
 
I have just noticed a recall on your website for Metzeler Tourance 150/70 R17 M/C 69V manufactured in weeks 09 and 10 of 2010. While this does not include my tyre, the symptoms are the same: "The affected tyres could suffer tread block tearing which on some occasions could lead to the separation of some blocks, causing a sudden and unexpected vibration of the motorcycle."
 
Can I therefore conclude that my tyre, like those being recalled, does not "consistently meet the optimum Metzeler quality-specifications which guarantee safe tyre performance" ?
 
The statement on the website regarding the recalled tyres says: "METZELER will pay for the purchase and installation of replacement tyres, including the cost of fitment."
 
Does this also apply to the replacement tyre that I require?
 
Best Regards
Jon


From: webmaster.uk@metzelermoto.com
Subject: Customer Service

Good Afternoon,
 
I am disappointed to note that I have not received a reply to my email of two days ago. Despite 25 years of loyalty to the Metzeler name, I am now considering an alternative brand for replacement tyres.
 
Although I continue to have the opinion that Metzeler tyres offer a high level of grip in both wet and dry conditions and last for many miles of riding, I am very unimpressed with your level of customer service in the light of what could be a potentially dangerous manufacturing fault.
 
The full thread of the issue may be read in the chain of emails below. You will see that I have asked two very specific questions, which you have either avoided answering (in your last email) or have now, it appears, stopped discussing the matter all together.
 
I repeat the questions here for you convenience:
1. Looking at the provided photos do you feel that this tyre "meets Metzeler quality-specifications which guarantee safe tyre performance" and therefore I can continue to ride the bike without concern?
2. If you feel the tyre may be the subject of a manufacturing fault (and therefore was not fit for purpose at the time of sale) are you prepared to discuss paying for a replacement tyre?
Also for your convenience, I attach the two earlier images along with a third which illustrates clearly the depth of the cracks.
 
I would appreciate your direct response to my direct questions.
 
Thank you in advance.
Jon Wilmer.


From: webmaster.uk@metzelermoto.com
Subject: RE: Customer Service

Thank you for replying. However, I have asked two specific questions. Would you please be kind enough to answer with specific answers:
 
1 Do you feel that this tyre "meets Metzeler quality-specifications which guarantee safe tyre performance"?
2. Are you prepared to discuss paying for a replacement tyre?

Thank you in advance for your attention.
 
Jon Wilmer


From: webmaster.uk@metzelermoto.com
Subject: RE: Customer Service
Good morning,
 
As I understand from your reply, you are not willing to answer my questions, neither are you even willing to discuss the possibility of any offer towards the cost of the replacement tyre until after you have the tyre in your possession?
 
Due to your very poor communication over this issue I hope you will forgive my cynicism but, once you have the tyre, I no longer have any evidence regarding the break down of the material and, therefore, whether the item was of "merchantable quality" and "fit for purpose" at the time of sale. Once the tyre is with you I do not have the confidence that your assessment will be unbiased. You would, for example, be completely at liberty to say "the tyre was abused, not our fault". I would have no recourse and no evidence.
 
Under the circumstances, I feel I would be in a better position if I arrange an independent inspection though my local Trading Standards Authority, perhaps with the assistance of the motorcycle press.
 
I am sure you do not want to admit to a manufacturing problem, especially in light of the current recall. (Similar tyre, same symptoms) That would be bad publicity. However, I think you are not seeing the bigger picture: If it is reported that the tyre was found to be defective AND you were not even prepared to discuss the issue with a loyal customer. That would be very bad publicity.
 
Jon Wilmer
(Motorcycle Action Group UK)


From: webmaster.uk@metzelermoto.com
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 17:48:39 +0200
Subject: RE:RE: Customer Service

Mr Wilmer

Pirelli tyres in the UK operates along with all NTDA members (tyre outlets) and all other tyre manufactures to a standard warranty inspection process. This requires the tyre to be returned by your tyre dealer with a completed standard application form to the manufacture concerned.
We can not make a full inspection unless we are able to fully examine all of the tyre (internally as well as externally), which may require samples being taken from the tyre for further testing.
The tyre will be inspected in our UK warranty centre and you will be advised in writing of our technicians results.
If we find there is a manufacturing fault we will credit your dealer a percentage of the tyres value for him to pass on to yourself.
If we can find no manufacturing fault(s) we will write to you with an explanation of why we have rejected the claim.
At this point if you so wish we will return the tyre to your tyre dealer
THERE IS NO CHARGE FOR ANY OF THIS SERVICE

Best Regards
Paul Leyland
Product Evaluation Europe &
Warranty Management UK


Mr Leyland,

Thank you for your full and detailed email. What a shame it took 6 emails from me before someone from Metzeler was prepared to send such a response. I would have preferred this reply after my first email, of one week ago.

I now understand that you operate a standard warranty inspection process. I think that operating to any standard procedure is actually rather limiting in that is does not allow for discretionary action. In my experience minimum standards are also used as maximum standards. Therefore, no company (in this instance, Metzeler) is willing to stand head and shoulders above the rest and say "We're better, we go further". From the customer point of view this is very disappointing.

As I mentioned in one of my previous emails, I have been loyally using Metzeler tyres for 25 years. I am disheartened to find that customer loyalty is not reciprocated. As is so often the case, it seems that Metzeler are such a big concern they forget that it’s the little people, like me, that put you where you are today.

During the week that has passed I already decided to replace my tyre. After such poor responses to date, I am sorry to advise you that I have fitted a tyre made by one of your competitors. Should this brand demonstrate itself to be as good or possibly even better than my experience of Metzeler tyres, it will signal the end of an almost lifelong relationship. As is so often the case with a breakdown in a relationship, the cause was poor communication.

The replacement tyre was purchased online and fitted by a friend of mine. He is not an NTDA member. I have kept the (possibly) faulty tyre. If you would like to send a courier or postage paid label, I would be happy to ensure the tyre is returned for your inspection.

Should it be found there was a manufacturing fault, I have to say that I am not impressed by the offer that you will credit me with a percentage of the tyres value. This does not accept that the tyre was not of merchantable quality at the time of sale. Nor that it could have failed at any time with potentially disastrous results. What ever happened to “we are genuinely sorry you were not entirely satisfied with our product, here is another one so that you can give us another chance”. All part of keeping down to the minimum standard, I guess.

However, I am very pleased to note you point out that for the inspection, possible send off of samples, the letter advising of results and a possible part refund, “THERE IS NO CHARGE FOR ANY OF THIS SERVICE”. As opposed to what, exactly? So far I have paid around £75 for a product that I believed in and now feel very let down by the company that manufactures it. You’ll forgive me if I don’t get too excited.

Best Regards
Jon

[putbinoot]

Get in touch with MSN see if they want to do an article on why metz ain't doing a recal on other tyres. Along the lines you want MSN to warn other motorcyclists to be careful about buying metz tyres due to a current fault in there manufacture.

[Juvecu]

Being someone that trains customer services personnel I can't say I'm shocked at all. These positions are often filled with the best candidate of a bad bunch and some of the criteria is actually that they shouldn't be too experienced or good at it (judging from their CV and the interviews) because they could get bored in the job and leave. Personally, after 3 years of arguing with my manager to appoint people with more than 2 brain cells, I've now given up to try convince them otherwise. They'd rather lose a bunch of customers and their reputation than take the time to find someone that can do the job properly. The most appalling thing is that no attention is paid to their language skills at all. Where I come from, language and grammar are very important tools in creating good impressions in any written form of communication, be that by letters, email or live chat sessions.

This seems to be a rant :-) All I'm saying is that I understand completely what you're on about. If you were a customer that was dealt with in our call centre and I picked up on that kind of service you'd likely have a replacement tyre on the way to you as a gesture of goodwill (too bad I don't sell tyres ;) ) I think the statistics say that someone treated badly will tell, on average, 7 other people about it, but someone treated well would maybe tell 1. I think this is more extreme in the motorcycle communities because a lot of us have the habit of asking for recommendations before we spend our hard earned money. Reputation really is everything in the end.

ps. You were very patient, I think you handled it quite well, but do insist to speak to/be contacted by a manager next time when you get someone that useless. Managers don't like it when things get escalated to them and tend to take the easy way out and just give you what you want to get rid of you and so that you don't give them any extra trouble. It's like that Money Supermarket advert says: "Don't worry about hurting their feelings, they're professionals." ;) I like that you put the "Motorcycle Action Group UK" in there, sneaky.

E&EO  

[JonStrom]

Hi Putbinoot - Yes, that is just the sort of thing I think I should do. If Metzeler are so unwilling to follow up on a possible major manufacturing problem, with the potential for serious consequences, then I feel it is my duty as part of the wider motorcyling community to bring it to the attention of as many riders as possible.

Hi Juvecu, as a self-employed IT professional I know just how important customer relations skills are. It's much easier to retain an existing client than gain a new one. I'm very dissapointed when I find a big company that doesn't appreciate this. Funny how they tried to fob me off with responses from "Mr Work Experience Student (jnr)" until I mentioned MAG UK. (I am a Rep for the local area, so it is justified) Then, from nowhere, appears "Mr Product Evaluation Europe & Warranty Management UK" (Same b*llsh*t, different job title)

For 25 years I have been happy to recommend Metzelers to everyone I know. I think it's a great record that it has taken until now to find one duff tyre. However, my measure of a company is how it reacts when a problem occurs. Metzeler have come up short on this score. Now all I have to do find 7 times as many people to tell about it. I do like a challenge!

By the way: The Mitchelin Anakee replacements feel great!

[Cyberglass]

Well you've sold me mate was going to order some new torrance shoes today. After reading all that I think I will jump ship.
How you finding the Mitchelin Anakees on the corners ??