Author Topic: Cockup or crush washer? (Read 2341 times)

LaKraven · « **on:** October 08, 2012, 03:20:53 »

Fired up the engine on bike and checked the oil drain bolt. Behold: it's leaking... quite a lot, actually!
I had trouble getting it to snug (the bolt follows the thread just fine, but right at the end it just spins (never snugs up). I'm really bloody hoping this just means that I've worn out the crush washer and need to replace it.

Please can someone tell me it's just a simple case of replacing the crush washer, and that I haven't fubar'd the thread or something equally insane!

At no point have I overtightened or otherwise done anything stupid when removing/inserting the drain bolt, and it certainly wasn't leaking before I did the oil change!

I'm going to try and remain optimistic and replace the crush washer (I'm doing this anyway as I've ordered a magnetic drain bolt which should hopefully arrive on Tuesday and comes with a fresh washer).

If, however, something is seriously wrong (stripped thread, for example) is this easily solved? Is it even possible to replace that part of the engine? It looks like it's part of the crank case itself, so probably not

greywolf · « **Reply #1 on:** October 08, 2012, 04:27:21 »

Spinning without snugging up means the threads are stripped, no question about that. A helicoil, timesert, or retapping for a larger bolt are the usual fixes.

Gassoon · « **Reply #2 on:** October 08, 2012, 09:22:26 »

Sorry to hear about it LaKraven, mate! Greywolf of course is right, unfortunately. I changed oil a week ago, and always start off replacing the bolt by hand, and I remember it was a bit tricky to ensure it was engaging the threads properly...got it started with my fingers a few times, and even then undid it and rried again to make sure. It's far too easily done on any bike, you'll not be the first or last.

Never mind, it is fixable.

Have a read of this about solutions...http://www.vstrom.info/Smf/index.php?topic=6667.0

LaKraven · « **Reply #3 on:** October 08, 2012, 12:56:52 »

Well that's a way to completely ruine my day, huh!

Now the question is: how do I stop it leaking to a point where I can ride the godamn thing to a garage? And can your typical one-man-band small garage do this kind of work, or is it a job for the major dealer? I ask because my nearest main Suzuki dealer is ~30 miles away.... and I don't fancy chancing a journey that long on a bike that's spewing oil from the sump plug!

Also: would it be possible for a mechanic to fix it in situ in my garage (where I already have the hydraulic table and comprehensive set of tools) if they just bring whatever it is they need to fit a helicoil?

LaKraven · « **Reply #4 on:** October 08, 2012, 13:42:59 »

Hold on to your hats, gentlemen, because it turns out this tale gets worse!

Digging around and I've discovered that it's not even the normal drain bolt I've been using to drain the sump! Apparently I've been removing the "gulley drain bolt" used only in preparation for disassembly of the engine to drain the residue of oil from the system, and that the service drain bolt is on the other side of the bike, inline with the gear lever!

That means that when I was going over the bike with the mechanic who last serviced the bike (before I started doing the services myself owing to his insane overtightening of quite literally every bolt he got his salami fingers on) gave me very bad information!

Here's a picture of the bolt I removed (the one that is now leaking and has a stripped thread):

hookie · « **Reply #5 on:** October 08, 2012, 14:27:17 »

There are really only two ways to repair a stripped thread. One is to drill the damaged thread out and tap it to the next available size up. The second and probably the preferred correct way is to have it helicoiled (could be a different name but does same job)so it will accept the original bolt again. The problem is this. Once you drill the new hole and tap the new thread, there will be a collection of debris inside the engine and if this isn't completely removed it could cause serious damage to critical components like the oil pump and any plain bearings in the engine although the oil filter should remove it depending where it is in the oil feeds.Whether any technician could guarantee to get all this debris out is a matter of conjecture, but you may find someone who can do it properly. Ideally the engine should be removed and the bottom crankcase half should be removed and the job done properly. This is not good news but it's better to know the options. Best of luck...

greywolf · « **Reply #6 on:** October 08, 2012, 14:51:10 »

That oil gallery bolt is under pressure from the oil pump. I would look for a local machine shop rather than a dealer to fix it.

Gassoon · « **Reply #7 on:** October 08, 2012, 17:17:54 »

If that mechanic was as ham-fisted and as ill-informed as all that, its quite possible that he knacked the thread when he changed your oil, and you have just discovered it (hope that makes you feel a bit, er, better

)
I think its name and shame time so other strommers don't get caught out...

Maybe you need to do your local research, ask around for advice ...new thread 'Advice on machine shops in Suffolk'? Or google it?

hookie · « **Reply #8 on:** October 08, 2012, 17:38:21 »

As you live in Suffolk (I think I may have suggested this before?) you could try Carl Harrison in Harleston on 01379 852020. I've been around bike mechanics and technicians for more years than I would care to mention and Carl is one of the best I've known. Suggest you contact him and see what his take on your situation is. Reliably re-threading this bolt is not a difficult job to a competent technician.

Juvecu · « **Reply #9 on:** October 08, 2012, 17:58:44 »

On the bright side, you did manage to figure out why you couldn't get all the oil drained out

If that bolt stripped on my old K5 I'd probably be digging out the liquid metal and bodging it. I doubt I'll ever need to take that out on my bike. If I ever needed to do something serious enough to the engine to need to take that bolt out the engine would likely already be on the bench and then it's as good a time as ever to drill it out and fix it properly. I'm not recommending that you do this, just thinking our loud really

LaKraven · « **Reply #10 on:** October 08, 2012, 19:15:37 »

Here's the funny thing: the bolt was biting quite nicely a few mil from fully inserted, and so (in order to ride the bike up to a local mechanic to have it helicoiled) I shoved a few M8 washers between the bolt and the crush washer, then snugged it up hand tight + "a tad" (technical term for "as much as I was comfortable with, but much less than factory spec) and the leak basically turned to a slow seepage with occasional drip with the engine reving.
Managed to get it to the mechanic with nerry a drip of oil on the rear tyre... so I'm quite impressed with that!

Had to hitchike home, though, because he told me when I got there that he wouldn't be able to look at it until tomorrow (sigh) and he's 18 miles from where I live! Set off at 3PM, was home by 6PM. Picking the bike up (god willing) tomorrow afternoon.

Now to PM Fat Rat to let him know why I haven't been able to despatch his GPS today

Gassoon · « **Reply #11 on:** October 08, 2012, 19:20:28 »

Quote from: "Juvecu"

On the bright side, you did manage to figure out why you couldn't get all the oil drained out

If that bolt stripped on my old K5 I'd probably be digging out the liquid metal and bodging it. I doubt I'll ever need to take that out on my bike. If I ever needed to do something serious enough to the engine to need to take that bolt out the engine would likely already be on the bench and then it's as good a time as ever to drill it out and fix it properly. I'm not recommending that you do this, just thinking our loud really

You sly dog! (I was thinking exactly the same

) Then I thought about when it comes to selling it on...nah. Couldn't do it. :angelic-little:

LaKraven · « **Reply #12 on:** October 08, 2012, 19:45:09 »

Quote from: "Gassoon"

Quote from: "Juvecu"
On the bright side, you did manage to figure out why you couldn't get all the oil drained out

If that bolt stripped on my old K5 I'd probably be digging out the liquid metal and bodging it. I doubt I'll ever need to take that out on my bike. If I ever needed to do something serious enough to the engine to need to take that bolt out the engine would likely already be on the bench and then it's as good a time as ever to drill it out and fix it properly. I'm not recommending that you do this, just thinking our loud really

You sly dog! (I was thinking exactly the same ) Then I thought about when it comes to selling it on...nah. Couldn't do it. :angelic-little:

I can't say that the thought of using some Steel Epoxy didn't cross my mind too... but I don't think I'd ever be comfortable knowing that I did a half-arsed bodge job on my own bike!

LaKraven · « **Reply #13 on:** October 09, 2012, 14:14:50 »

Bike's still with the mechanic. Phoned him up, says he's had to remove the entire exhaust to helicoil the hole. Says he's done that but now he's having to refit the entire exhaust (personally I thought it'd be enough to remove the front section of the exhaust as there appears to be a joining section just past the hole, but apparently not).

Bike won't be ready until tomorrow, and I get the scary feeling he's going to want a lot of money for doing this (a lot more than I feel a job like this should cost).
I'll let y'all know what he says tomorrow. I keep asking for a price and he keeps brushing it off, which could either mean he's going to be the coolest mechanic ever and do it for a really small flat fee, or totally screw me on labour cost.

mr_diver · « **Reply #14 on:** October 09, 2012, 21:30:25 »

if he knows his arse from header pipe it'll take 10 mins to replace the exhaust.

and no the headers are separate, then from there back is all one piece,

great ain't it!

Juvecu · « **Reply #15 on:** October 10, 2012, 21:25:42 »

I doubt my front cylinder header would separate from the rest of the pipe, the corrosion in that area is quite bad. Not to mention that the clamp is all rusted tight as well.

LaKraven · « **Reply #16 on:** October 10, 2012, 21:40:37 »

Got bike back today! £92.20 it's cost me... far more than I would've charged to fit a helicoil!

Jacko · « **Reply #17 on:** October 10, 2012, 22:23:19 »

To be fair to them I think I'd be happy with that, someone else dealt with the problem and the work is guaranteed, piece of mind..

LaKraven · « **Reply #18 on:** October 10, 2012, 23:03:06 »

Quote from: "Jacko"

To be fair to them I think I'd be happy with that, someone else dealt with the problem and the work is guaranteed, piece of mind..

Yeah... you're right. I'd just hoped it would've cost less is all ;)

Abercol · « **Reply #19 on:** October 11, 2012, 17:26:05 »

£92! I'm with Juv, epoxy metal, its not like you'd ever be there again. As for it not lasting, I was party to a bodge to fix a hole punched in the crankcase on a gsx750 in1985, we araldited a 2p over the hole, bike was still going strong last time I saw it in1996 with the same 2p in place, 45,000 all weather miles later.

Just the other week I epoxy metalled a holed crankcase on a gsxf600f, the rider travelled 50+ miles with the hole covered by duct tape (Did start to leak heavily after 45 miles), then 150 at high speed with the metal putty in place after waiting 25 mins for it to set. Not a drop came out and the repair was totally solid. So good, I have added a tube of metal epoxy under the seat to join the duct tape & cable ties as the ultimate Instant repair tools.