Post by: oddbod on May 18, 2014, 18:12:43
Happens nearly everytime I ride it now.
Had its 600 mile service yesterday and as dealer couldn't reproduce the fault, the only option he offered was to contact Suzuki on mon to see if they could advise.
I asked him to check the throttle body sleeves hadn't popped off but he was insistent that if they had the bike would be over revving at approx 4k on tickover.
Am minded to pop the tank off and check myself whilst waiting for dealer to respond as not convinced with their competence.
Have read a few other posts reg prev models of strom and seems tbs were an issue.
Any pointers wld be v grateful.
Many thanks
Post by: SimonW on May 18, 2014, 19:00:08
Post by: Jacko on May 18, 2014, 19:12:30
Post by: oddbod on May 18, 2014, 19:22:46
Although it shldnt be a prob popping the tank off and checking the tbs I'm of the opinion that why the heck shld I?
Purpose of this post is to establish an idea of what else it cld be if not the tbs.
Post by: Oop North John on May 18, 2014, 19:34:45
Post by: kwackboy on May 18, 2014, 19:43:24
It's surprising that a new bike has these problems but I've seen similar symptoms in older bikes when water gets into the fuel tank.
Does your FI light flash when your bike has its issues ? If so this means it's electronic but if it was my bike I would be taking it back under warranty and telling them to find the fault and fix it .
Post by: oddbod on May 18, 2014, 19:48:53
I suppose the most accurate way to describe it is:
Cuts out on idle (in first gear) just before pull away. Backfires/misfires at the same time.
Slight jolt when getting the power on from shut throttle mid corner. Sometimes cuts out completely.
Sudden loss of power when revs fall below 2500. Snatchy throttle
Post by: wal750 on May 18, 2014, 20:06:25
Post by: MartinW on May 18, 2014, 20:07:49
Take it back. It's in warranty and it doesn't do what it is supposed to do. If they won't fix it then call Suzuki Customer Services.
Post by: oddbod on May 18, 2014, 20:41:09
Post by: wunwinglow on May 18, 2014, 20:56:48
Do keep us posted!
Tim
PS I have a Scott Oiler fitted to mine too....
Post by: Oop North John on May 18, 2014, 21:12:34
http://www.stromtrooper.com/dl1000a-201 ... shift.html (http://www.stromtrooper.com/dl1000a-2014/186930-stall-down-shift.html)
Post by: Bobstar222 on May 18, 2014, 21:30:35
Post by: oddbod on May 18, 2014, 21:53:48
My strategy is going to be: if I pick it up and it still does it, its going straight back. I will do this until the problem is fixed. If it doesn't get fixed then I will return the bike and demand a refund.
Shame really because I absolutely love the bike. Apart from the above.
Post by: oddbod on May 20, 2014, 19:09:29
I drafted up a detailed synopsis of when the cutting out fault occurs, what speed, gear, approaching junction etc etc and sent this to Suzuki customer services.
Had a call from the dealer today asking if I could drop the bike off and leave with them to try and rectify the fault. The dealer also asked if I cld leave the bike with them until they are happy the fault is fixed.
Apparently Suzuki customer care have contacted the dealer and suggested adjusting the throttle position sensor.
Looks like emailing customer services has given the dealer a royal boot up the harris.
Am dropping the bike off saturday so will update this post with my results.
Post by: Jacko on May 20, 2014, 19:35:47
Post by: MartinW on May 20, 2014, 20:38:23
Post by: ProfG on May 23, 2014, 15:01:22
Could it be dirty petrol? I had the same problem last saturday and it turned out to be a dirty petrol that I had filled up from an independent petrol station.
Post by: oddbod on May 23, 2014, 15:05:53
Customer services have been all over me like a rash since I wrote to them, which is a good thing. The bike is going in tomorrow to have the TPS adjusted and I can go from there.
Updates will follow next week. Positive updates hopefully!
Post by: Jacko on May 23, 2014, 15:19:12
Post by: oddbod on May 23, 2014, 15:27:25
Post by: greywolf on May 23, 2014, 15:56:41
Post by: oddbod on May 23, 2014, 16:05:02
Quote from: "greywolf"
Typically, a bad TPS will cause stalling at idle and uneven power at low throttle openings, especially when hot.
Fingers crossed that's the fault then!!
Post by: oddbod on May 23, 2014, 16:07:12
Post by: greywolf on May 23, 2014, 17:45:54
Post by: oddbod on May 23, 2014, 20:09:19
I also suggested the possibility that the throttle body sleeves may have popped off but he dismissed the idea and said the bike wild rev at 4000rpm if they were loose or popped off.
I disagreed but he stood firm with his opinion.
I appreciate your technical pointers and will go loaded with these tmrw morn.
Post by: greywolf on May 23, 2014, 22:39:15
Quote from: "oddbod"
The mechanic was of the opinion there were no adjustment screws on the injector system whatsoever as I had prev asked him to adjust the tick over to compensate for the rev drop.The idle rpm is not adjustable. There will be air screws on the throttle bodies to synch them at idle. That's a totally different procedure from what you asked about.
Post by: oddbod on May 23, 2014, 22:46:24
Will keep this post updated as soon as I have some news
Post by: oddbod on May 23, 2014, 22:47:52
Post by: oddbod on May 24, 2014, 09:22:51
Is the throttle position sensor adjustable or would it have to replaced/repaired?
Post by: SimonW on May 24, 2014, 10:24:42
Post by: oddbod on May 24, 2014, 10:36:19
Post by: greywolf on May 24, 2014, 12:50:12
Quote from: "oddbod"
Greywolf,It's adjustable if it is working properly. If it isn't working properly, it would need to be replaced. A TPS adjustment, a TBS synch at idle speed and an ISC valve reset are probably called for here.
Is the throttle position sensor adjustable or would it have to replaced/repaired?
Post by: oddbod on May 24, 2014, 13:19:27
Will keep this post updated.
Post by: Timmo on May 24, 2014, 21:50:36
Post by: Jacko on May 24, 2014, 21:52:53
Post by: tallpaul on May 24, 2014, 22:45:32
Post by: Gassoon on May 25, 2014, 09:24:59
Or oddbods blasting aboot on his now-perfect Vee...
Post by: oddbod on May 25, 2014, 11:09:10
Dropped it off yesterday lunchtime. No quick fix in mind as far as dealer was concerned.
They had already spoken to Suzuki GB technical bloke who had suggested it maybe the TPS.
When I said l'll hang around while you check it they were insistent they wanted to ride the bike until they recreate the fault themselves, then check the TPS and any other possibilities, then re-test the bike until they are happy the fault has been fixed.
"Assuring me they are working in my best interests", they asked if they could keep the bike for a few days, which I agreed to, on the previso it is fixed by next sat at the latest otherwise I will have no choice but to contact Suzuki, inform the bike is not fit for purpous and have a refund.
To be honest I'm not overly convinced with their technical capabilities. When I suggest possible reasons for the fault, I am met with a certain amount of negativity or a reason why I am wrong. Perhaps they don't appreciate customers trying to help them establish what the fault could possibly be or is it they are simply not bothered and hope I will get fed up with their excuses and take the bike home without having it fixed?
The saga continues....
Post by: gnewso on May 25, 2014, 16:46:46
Post by: oddbod on May 25, 2014, 17:22:19
All I can offer is wait and see what the outcome is with me and I will update this post for all to see/use.
Interesting that you say you've tried adjusting the TPS with no results. Fingers crossed I get to the bottom of it at my end soon.
Post by: Timmo on May 25, 2014, 17:32:38
Post by: oddbod on May 25, 2014, 17:51:22
They can put 100 miles on it for all I care, as long as the bloody thing is fixed
Post by: greywolf on May 25, 2014, 17:53:49
Quote from: "gnewso"
Where can I buy a new/used tps? I've got the issues talked about here, bike is great at speed and doesn't use much fuel going to leeds, but around town it's a pig and stalls loads and uneven idle. It's spoiling a great bike. I've tried to adjust it, keeps moving loads, but didn't seem to so,be the issueYou don't have a 2014 model. Those symptoms are typical of lean fueling issues the older bikes had.
Post by: Timmo on May 25, 2014, 19:58:52
Post by: Gassoon on May 25, 2014, 20:26:41
If you need more help, start a new thread in the V Strom Specific section so this one doesn't get distracted from the new 1000abs issues :) :thumb:
Post by: gnewso on May 25, 2014, 20:52:20
Post by: oddbod on May 25, 2014, 21:08:17
I catch your drift now.
As long as the bike is fixed I'll be happy.
Apart from the above (and the buffeting issue which I don't class as a fault and have nearly sorted now), I really love the bike. It looks great, handles great, is lovely to ride (when its not cutting out) and will be putting a big smile on my face for many years....once sorted....
Post by: kissofdeath on May 25, 2014, 21:16:46
Post by: Timmo on May 25, 2014, 22:41:00
Post by: Hugo Magnus on May 26, 2014, 08:36:03
Post by: Gassoon on May 26, 2014, 09:27:21
I didn't get what timmo was talking about - thought I was going mad - to be honest I thought 'F%ck me' and other crudites...
Post by: Timmo on May 26, 2014, 21:24:17
Post by: stevecro on May 26, 2014, 23:53:37
Quote from: "Timmo"
I am seriously looking at the new 1000 but is it me ? The new owners are keeping quiet. I know of two in the dealers now ! I will be shouting from the rooftops about mine even if I decide the 650 glee is my choice. Come On you Veek owners forget the price, and buffeting, tell us What's great about them.
Firstly.... check about your accessories situation over there. I'm ready for first service but accessories are still nowhere to be seen - I contacted the dealer and Suzuki Australia yesterday since I figure nearly a month is sufficient time to wait. Will await S/A's reply.
I was never caught up in the whole "price" thing. Using direct exchange rates (which doesn't tell the whole story) mine was nearly 15% cheaper than the UK list, and that was "ride away" price. Other bikes sometimes touted as better equipped competitors (Caponord, GS1200, KTM1190Adv) are nearly 50% dearer here - no contest when I really examined what I needed from this bike since the others won't do what my heavily modded DR650 can do on the rough stuff either. The Vstrom is simply my tourer which can take on a bit of gravel and dirt to go from tar road to tar road the short way. This can save me several hundred kms when out and beyond.
OK, my thoughts since you asked -
600 miles into ownership and I'm already down to 5mm chicken strips on the tyres, such is the balance, smooth power delivery and agile handling. I was expecting it to be a little ponderous compared to my previous bike but it isn't, even with that 19" front hoop. Holds a line beautifully, bars give plenty of leverage.
Fuel consumption is better than I expected too. So far it has 4.4/litres per 100 showing (64+MPG) and I'm thinking it'll be around 4.5 all the time when fully run in, even accounting for using more revs on occasions.
In my usage this will always be a 60+mpg bike giving an easy 250 miles between fills. With my 10 litre collapsible fuel bladder I'll have a safe range of nearly 400 miles.
Brakes are top notch, plenty of stopping power and feel (from the GSXR1000 I believe). Only issue is non switchable ABS so I'll be watching for a modification to turn off the rear.
The seat suits me fine even though some here don't agree. Mind you, I've managed 1100kms in a day on a rock hard DR650 seat, so I'm an iron b-u-t-t. The screen depends totally on the individual's needs. Mine is at the highest level and seems fine. I'll need many hundreds of kms on freeway type roads to see if it gets irritating - but who wants to ride freeway anyway? BTW, I'm 180cms and 180lbs just for comparison purposes.
Here we ride all year round, don't have corrosive conditions for bikes and it lives in a ventilated garage. Chances are I'll never be qualified to comment on corrosion or other deterioration.
Wife reports pillion perch is comfortable (I take it she means she can handle short hauls of 200kms or so before a coffee).
I find the bars a little too slim for my hands. I just put on a throttle rocker so I can relax my grip and uncurl my hands a bit.
Luggage handling I won't know about till the panniers arrive. I bought a 45 quid cheapy rear rack soft bag which carries a change of clothes,shoes and toiletries (or my helmet). That'll do a weekend ride if I'm staying in a country pub overnight.
Suspension while good will need to be adjusted in micro steps to get the exact feel I want. The compression damping seemed a little harsh to me on rough tar the other day. There's an advantage in buying the expensive alternative bikes if you don't like fiddling to find what suits you.
The pegs do go exactly where I would naturally put my legs unfortunately. I minimise this by dropping them a little early before I stop and running the pegs up to my calf muscles which lift them up slightly. That's on flat stops only - slightly uphill or downhill stops puts them in a more comfortable position.
All in all I'm very content with the bike. It's not only "great value" (I hate that description - it sounds condescending), it is a very good motor bike in any company. There are things every individual will have to alter or learn to live with but that's the same for every choice out there.
Post by: ziggy on May 27, 2014, 05:03:12
I have 3,500 miles on the clock of mine now and all going well.
Hope you're sorted soon.
:)
Post by: Hilldweller on May 27, 2014, 09:50:05
Quote from: "Timmo"
I am seriously looking at the new 1000 but is it me ?
If you don't know who it is then it's more than a new bike you need.
Post by: tallpaul on May 27, 2014, 10:20:47
Quote from: "Hilldweller"
If you don't know who it is then it's more than a new bike you need.lol
Post by: Timmo on May 27, 2014, 10:40:38
Post by: Oop North John on May 27, 2014, 12:11:19
Quote from: "Timmo"
. I think Suzuki where not ready for the release of the Veek there was one bloke on here that got all his accessories day one but more that didn't. Good luck getting your stuff!
They didn't get the Glee's out till a few months after the launch as well.
I'm looking forward to having a go on the litre bike this weekend, hope it keeps dry and not too windy.
I know the OP isn't happy with how the bikes running, but it's good to see that there aren't many complaints.
Post by: Timmo on May 27, 2014, 13:56:57
Post by: Bobstar222 on May 27, 2014, 17:08:54
Post by: Timmo on May 27, 2014, 18:36:20
Post by: Bobstar222 on May 27, 2014, 21:10:41
Post by: Fat Rat on May 27, 2014, 21:42:51
Post by: SimonW on May 27, 2014, 23:13:06
1. Very generally speaking, the bike itself and Suzuki's activities in relationship to it were pretty much slagged off over a period of time on here. Consequently owners may be a bit cautious about posting.
2. People's real-world experience of using the bike extends to just under 3 months which isn't very much time to offer much more than has already been written by lots of journalists and which can be experienced on a long test ride. Most of the reviews I've read seem to echo my own thoughts (even one or two points (from memory) of the webbikeworld review resonated with me).
3. There aren't many people on here who actually own one - maybe 4 or 5 off the top of my head. I know at least one of those isn't a frequent visitor. Less owners and a short period of ownership isn't likely to yield a plethora of information.
4. Not everyone is great at expressing themselves in writing, nor necessarily enjoys it. I'm sure if anyone met any of the new owners in a pub or olde coffee shoppe somewhere they'd have a hard time shutting them up about the new bike, especially if they'd ridden there!
5. Quite a lot of comments have already been posted here on the forum (notwithstanding the time period and low owner count) and a brief search or browse will easily find them. Not much point in writing that which has already been written. (Except in the case of anything to do with oil, tyres or ebay links for Aprilia mirrors, seemingly :) )
My own experience/view
I bought mine on 1st March and regrettably have only managed about 1100 miles since then (work and home life are both very busy at the moment), so have relatively limited experience. Whilst my DL650 L2 was a brilliant bike I wanted something more planted on the motorway/fast A roads - a bit more "tank-like", for want of a better phrase.
Setting the issue of price aside, I accept I paid a premium for being an early adopter. Before buying it I tested a R1200GS, and a Super Tenere. I rejected the BMW (which I really enjoyed riding) because of the poor reliability issues that have been widely reported, because it had lots of technology which increases the likelihood of a problem developing and because the nearest dealer is 45+ mins away. I rejected the S10 mostly just because I strongly disliked the cross plane engine. My dealer is great (Alford Bros., Folkestone), accommodating and helpful and the first service cost me £70-odd quid, so no dearer than the 650 really. I seem to recall some here saying they'd been quoted or charged £130+ for their first service, which sounds expensive to me.
I like/don't mind the fact the DL1000 doesn't have a shaft drive. Doing as few miles as I do, lubing a chain isn't a problem for me. I can put a chain on in the back of beyond (that's more than 10 minutes walk to the nearest house down here in the south, sadly!) but there's nothing I can do with a broken shaft drive. I didn't want a shaft drive, wouldn't mind if it did have one and completely understand why some people do want them.
I hated the suspension the way it came. The front was sportsbike-hard and the back was DL650 soft. As Jacko pointed out in his test ride write up, it's totally imbalanced and you want a bike like this to just take you over the potholes and not let you know about them. Riding very small, very bumpy back lanes on a DL1000 with a Fireblade front end and a snatchy throttle (more on that below) was very very very one-enjoyable. When it went in for its first service they softened the front and it's much much better now. I intend to soften it a little more though, just for my preference.
I hated the fact that when I was pottering around the back lanes I would slowly roll off the throttle approaching blind corners and the power would just cut instantly at a certain point. And then equally abruptly it would lurch forward as I rolled on once round the corner. (So bumpy with hard suspension plus on/off throttle = deeply unpleasant kangerooing down the road.) This was not a case of needing to feather the clutch, etc, as suggested by many here. However, I changed the traction control setting from 2 to 1 and it seems to have almost totally cured the "problem", certainly to the point where I hardly notice it any more. I may ask the dealer to try to tweak the TPS to cure it without the need to alter the TC.
I hated the fact that it wasn't "just a big DL650" when I first got it. Part of that was down to a mistaken pre-conception on my part, partly down to the much firmer front suspension and on/off throttle I used to have and partly down to the fact that it isn't a "just a big 650".
So now the good bit! It does, now I've tweaked the suspension and TC, feel like "just a big 650" with better brakes, a more comfortable seat and lots more oomph. It's very light, both pushing/paddling it around and on the go. In fact, it feels no heavier than my old 650.
The engine is very smooth, not inline 4 smooth, but smooth nevertheless. From what I can hear above cam gear whine (not a complaint, just a characteristic) and through earplugs (and a silencer the size of two large bread bins welded together!) it sounds good too. It's still versatile enough to comfortably ride down bumpy, gravel-strewn, mud-covered back lanes and then sit planted down the motorway at typical motorway speeds. It tips in and corners nicely and overtakes require no planning - you just move your right hand a tiny bit more and go past. As someone who feels uncomfortable being alongside a car driven by someone who in all likelihood probably isn't thinking about what they're doing and what's around them, that's a good thing! My (mixed) ride of 100-odd miles the other week yielded 59 mpg or so, which is pretty impressive for a "big" bike. Even running and having to keep below 4k rpm isn't onerous as the engine is so responsive in the lower rev range.
The dash is nice - clear and easy to read, plenty of useful information, and easy to change on the move, and the 12v socket is handy for charging phones/Sat Nav etc (although it's fused at 3A so not man enough for a compressor - might have to look into that..).
I'm about 6' - 6' 1" and find the standard seat very comfortable (more so than the 650, and that was comfortable too) and have no problem putting my feet flat on the ground, nor where the pegs sit in relation to my legs when at a standstill. I did try the higher seat but found no particular improvement in comfort and actually felt like I was sitting on the bike, rather than in and with it. I swapped it back.
In short, I love it, and love it more the more I ride it.
However, that's my opinion, for my riding, with my budget, at my height/size, with my personal preferences etc. For some people the 1000 will be ideal, and equally, for others, the 650 will be just as perfect.
Post by: Timmo on May 27, 2014, 23:39:07
Post by: SimonW on May 27, 2014, 23:56:57
Timmo - you're welcome. Both bikes are excellent and it's a really tough call that only you can really make. If you're local I'm happy to meet up so you can take a close look at the 1000 without any time pressures if you want. Alfords have a demo 1000 in stock so getting a ride should be a problem. They really are an excellent bunch down there.
Post by: Gassoon on May 28, 2014, 09:13:49
Post by: stevecro on May 28, 2014, 11:36:59
Quote from: "SimonW"
Just remembered one more thing: buffeting. The bike came with the screen in the middle height position. No matter which of the 3 angle positions I set it in I had buffeting. Moving it to the top height position made it worse - so bad I thought my eyeballs would fall out. Moving it to the bottom setting has given me clean-ish air angled furtherest away; and a clean jet-blast angled closest towards me. I ride almost all the time with an open visor and the screen angled furthest away, and it's acceptable. Over time I may try to improve it, but it's easily acceptable for now. But: this is for my height, my posture, my comfort thresholds and my X-Lite X-551 (peaked) helmet (which I suspect is never going to be particularly aerodynamic anyway).
Great, thanks for the heads up.
If my screen on highest setting is horrible when I ride tomorrow I'll try the low setting.
Post by: Timmo on May 28, 2014, 14:17:14
Post by: oddbod on June 01, 2014, 17:58:38
Picked the bike up yesterday but have had a busy weekend this weekend so have only been able to take it for 30 mile run so far.
Dealer had:
1) Adjusted the TPS from 27.5 degrees to 28.9 degrees (based on Suzuki GB's recommendation)
2) Balanced the injectors (which were only slightly out apparantly)
3) ISC Lean Value Reset.
As the cutting out issue was random it is probably too early to confirm whether the issue has been resolved yet. However, it is looking very very promising.
The bike does not feel or sound like it is going to cut out now which made the ride (although only 30 mles) a lot more enjoyable than before, partly due to me not having to anticipate/prepare for the dreaded cut out. There is still a sight sudden loss or revs when rolling off the thottle in 2nd gear in slow moving traffic for example, but as it is a big v twin I'm putting this down to a characteristic of this type of engine. Prevously when I rolled off the throttle as above you could feel/hear the bike contemplating cutting out, so it was clutch in, revs up to avoid it. When filtering, this to me was obviously an issue and dangerous to say the least.
In addition, the bike rides a lot smoother throughout the rev range, is less jerky when opening the throttle from the closed/partly open position, making pulling away from a slow manouvre less of an on/off affair. Throttle response when you want power for an overtake is instant, smooth and effortless.
Dealer. Although my initial feelings on the dealers lack of enthusiasum/ability to rectify the fault were not that impressive, condeming then would be too harsh, after all, the fault has been rectified within two weeks (well its looking that way anyway), they had clocked up 30 miles of test riding, had to send their mechanic on a 1 day crash pc course so he was familiar with the latest Suzuki diagnostic software updates, Suzuki GB contacted me numerous times to see how things were going.
Now its time to get some serious mileage on the old girl and get her bedded in properly prior to my Bavaria trip in August.
I will update this post as time goes by with a progress report on whether or not the bike cuts out again.
Thanks to all for your comments and advices.They have been a valuable asset to me whilst trying to sort this out.
Post by: Timmo on June 01, 2014, 21:19:41
Post by: Sharpy on June 01, 2014, 21:48:38
:obscene-drinkingchug:
Post by: Timmo on June 01, 2014, 22:59:12
Post by: SimonW on June 01, 2014, 23:01:06
Quote from: "oddbod"
Dealer. Although my initial feelings on the dealers lack of enthusiasum/ability to rectify the fault were not that impressive, condeming then would be too harsh, after all, the fault has been rectified within two weeks (well its looking that way anyway), they had clocked up 30 miles of test riding, had to send their mechanic on a 1 day crash pc course so he was familiar with the latest Suzuki diagnostic software updates, Suzuki GB contacted me numerous times to see how things were going.Nice to hear a story about good customer service for once, seemingly from the dealer and Suzuki. I emailed Suzuki a while ago to point out that the accessories on the DL1000 2014 web page were for the old model and their customer services called me to apologise, which was quite unexpected. And they actually knew what they were talking about, rather than being some offshore call centre whose staff know Jack.
Good news it's fixed too - try turning the TC down to 1 to see if that helps make the roll off/on a bit less harsh.
Post by: oddbod on June 02, 2014, 07:42:40
Yep, I switched the TC to 1for the last few miles of ny test run and this did reduce the roll on/off slightly.
Hopefully I will be out on the bike again tonite if I get home from work early enough.
Post by: Mannakin on June 02, 2014, 13:32:32
Quote from: "oddbod"
SOLVED (well its looking that way)
There is still a sight sudden loss or revs when rolling off the thottle in 2nd gear in slow moving traffic for example, but as it is a big v twin I'm putting this down to a characteristic of this type of engine.
This sounds like the ECU trying to reduce emissions. When rolling off the throttle in low gears, the ECU cuts the fuelling and because it is a V-twin, the engine braking is strong and the bike suddenly "dies". When you roll on a little throttle it lags then suddenly picks up and you get a bit of a kangaroo ride.
I had that on my 2007 DL1000 and fitted a TRE on the advice of someone who had an SV1000 with the same problem (http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/tre.htm)
This fools the ECU into thinking the bike is in fourth all the time and the ECU doesn't do the nasty fuel cut-off in lower gears.
Be a little careful on the DL1000 as it also removes the speed limiter :shy:
They are bit expensive to buy now and ridiculously easy to build if you know how to solder. There is a post somewhere on the VSRI forum I think?
Post by: ziggy on June 09, 2014, 13:24:59
My dealer asked me if I prefer the 1000 to my 650 and I said the 650 not because I do not like the 1000. The 650 does 90% of what the 1000 does and where the 1000 comes into its own is for the continental runs as speed. Of course also good for the overtake.
Economy is much the same. My first service was £45 at Redcars and the 7500 service will be in July so will inform how this goes.
Post by: SimonW on June 09, 2014, 18:19:40
Quote from: "ziggy"
My dealer asked me if I prefer the 1000 to my 650 and I said the 650Interesting and timely, Ziggy. Right up until yesterday I probably would have said the same. But then I took a (very short) ride on my old 650 (sold to a friend) whilst he had a go on my 1000. I was very surprised by how it felt, although my observations are obviously based on riding the new one for nearly 2000 miles now.
The riding position of the 650 wasn't as nice as the 1000 - I found myself leaning a little too far forward and the seat wasn't as comfortable. The brakes were shocking after riding the 1000! The clutch felt weird and flimsy, and obviously it wasn't as fast. The steering felt heavier than the 1000 and the suspension softer (though that's my preference), and the Madstad was a complete joy - I'd forgotten what a good investment they are! Overall, I can comfortably say I much prefer the 1000 to the 650 now (with the caveat of course that I'm more used to riding it than the 650 these days).
(And none of this still makes either bike better than the other.)
Post by: ziggy on June 09, 2014, 19:41:03
:)
Post by: SimonW on June 09, 2014, 22:57:41
Post by: wunwinglow on June 14, 2014, 20:53:55
But the improvement in control is like being on a different bike. While Frasers was working on mine I took out their demo, and the difference was very striking, so clearly there is some variation in how the bikes are being set up.
Anyway, I am now within 1% of being completely delighted with my bike, and that last percent is due to the panniers and top box being a bit small for longer distance touring. That said, I was at Touratech last week, and they are preparing a range of accessories for the bike, so hopefully even that will get sorted sooner or later.
Tim P
Post by: Oop North John on June 14, 2014, 21:02:09
http://www.2ar.eu/motorrader/ (http://www.2ar.eu/motorrader/)
Post by: wunwinglow on June 14, 2014, 21:09:20
Tim
Post by: greywolf on June 14, 2014, 21:23:15
(https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608046620588641652&pid=15.1)
Post by: Juvecu on June 14, 2014, 21:42:49
Post by: wunwinglow on June 15, 2014, 02:32:45
Of course, alternatively, we might just be complete idiots.....
Tim
Post by: ziggy on June 15, 2014, 05:34:41
After saying that since we have had the DL with the luggage we have found that they are just the job. By that I mean I do not have to think about them when filtering etc.
Also whilst on the way to Normandy recently we went through a monsoon and I had also treated this a test to see if the boxes were water tight as we had not packed any clothing into plastic bags, this allows one to get more into the boxes. And I am very pleased to say they were as dry as a bone. Result.
:)
Post by: oddbod on June 15, 2014, 13:54:57
I was in 1st gear, just pulled the clutch in as rolling up my driveway about to come to a stop and it sounded like a misfire then cut out.
A previous comment suggested buying the following to smooth out the jerkiness of the on/off of the throttle in low gears, which I will, but not before I have Suzuki sort the the cutting out issue.
http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/tre.htm (http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/tre.htm)
Will update this post once its been back to the dealer for round 2....
Post by: gnewso on July 05, 2014, 21:32:33
Post by: oddbod on July 07, 2014, 11:07:09
Had the ECU re-mapped on Saturday at "Hilltop Tuning" just west of Leicester.
Was a 320 mile round trip for me and all I can say is not only did the bike NOT cut out or even go to cut out on the 180 mile return journey but it ran like an absolute dream!!
To sum up:
Cut outs have stopped and the bike shows no signs of wanting to cut out when shutting the throttle approaching junctions. I had 3 near cut outs on the way up to Leicester and none on the way home!
Jerkiness in lower revs has now gone (apart from the obvious engine braking which you would expect and enjoy when riding a big V twin). In comparison, previously it was like riding a tractor in anything under 3k rpm with the sudden switch like effect of the power when rolling on/off the throttle.
Power delivery is now smooth and consistent throughout each gear and an absolute pleasure to crank on the power in any gear.
As an additional bonus I have an extra 20% bhp at the rear wheel and increased torque (can't remember the torque figures as haven't got the dyno readings to hand).
1st dyno reading showed 77bhp at the rear wheel and also highlighted that the bike was running ridiculously lean under 2700rpm.
2nd dyno reading showed 90bhp at the rear wheel and much improved Air/Fuel ratio in lower revs.
For the first time in 4 months since purchasing the bike I can now say that it is an absolute joy to ride. So much so, that a 40 mile detour was in order on the return journey to extend the riding pleasure.
Have still got a massive grin on my face since Saturday and buzzing to get back out the bike.
Big thanks to Geoff at Hilltop Tuning for getting this sorted.
Post by: Oop North John on July 07, 2014, 11:58:36
Post by: kissofdeath on July 07, 2014, 12:16:52
Post by: frez on July 07, 2014, 12:25:49
If you take it into a dealership for servicing, make sure they don't overwrite the map with an updated version of the Suzuki one!
Post by: grimcookie on July 12, 2014, 08:47:49
Post by: wunwinglow on July 22, 2014, 23:53:47
Thanks Geoff and Ashley for a fascinating and rewarding day. And my bike sorted!
Tim
Post by: SimonW on July 23, 2014, 08:41:51
Post by: frez on July 23, 2014, 08:51:00
OK scratch my initial comments, this gives a better explanation of fuel ratios...
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=110767 (http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=110767)
Post by: wunwinglow on July 23, 2014, 12:17:53
To be honest, I'm taking the power/torque increases as an added bonus. Far and away the most important improvement for me is the smoothness of the engine, and the complete disappearance of the rough, nasty, 'just about to cough/fart/stall' feeling it gave before the remap. Indeed, on my little test ride I went round a roundabout on the bypass at Earl Shilton several times, lent over, 2nd gear, trying to provoke a splutter; nothing! Just smooth, consistent, controllable power. Coming in to work this morning down the M32, 5th gear, 65-70, smooth as silk, just delightful!!
I hadn't realised just how 'grumpy' the bike had been before, especially below 4000. I now have the dyno plots to show exactly why!! And the curves after the tweak are as smooth as the ride is now.
Yep, one very happy bunny!!
Tim
Post by: wunwinglow on July 23, 2014, 12:27:49
Tim
Post by: Oop North John on July 23, 2014, 12:31:54
Running way too lean is an easy way to hole pistons / burn out valves IIRC.
Post by: oddbod on July 23, 2014, 12:32:49
The extra power/torque are an added bonus but were not the reason in seeking a remap.
""After the remap I now have smooth, consistent, controllable power as opposed to rough, nasty, 'just about to cough/fart/stall' feeling it gave before.""
Totally enjoyable bike now and the ferry is booked ready for a jaunt to Bavaria returning through the mountain passes of Austria/Swiss alps.
To be honest there is no way I would have considered riding through alpine passes/switchbacks the way the bike was performing before the remap.
Post by: ziggy on July 26, 2014, 20:23:34
At the risk of starting a riot I have now come to my final conclusion regarding the smoothness of the engine. I am not suggesting that no one has a problem as I am sure there has been the odd niggle.
So having now covered over 8,000 enjoyable miles on mine I have now decided that the engine runs fine in any of the traction control settings. I like others have noted posts that may suggest that if you run on setting one instead of setting two the bike is smoother as I did and yes I thought that does seem better. Again it was suggested that switching off the traction control was even better and when I tried this it did seen better. But as far as I am now concerned its all in the mind. I have tried all setting's each for several hundred miles each and in my mind there is no difference with any of them and lets be honest why should the traction control have any bearing on the engine running/mapping except when ones loses traction and the system holds back the engine to stop wheel spin in what ever method it should.
The major factor for those bikes that do not run smoothly is throttle bodies balance.
:)
Post by: wunwinglow on August 15, 2014, 18:44:28
Still loving the rest of the bike however! Off to Espana shortly, which should be great!
Tim
Post by: Juvecu on August 15, 2014, 19:02:07
Post by: Blade on August 15, 2014, 19:36:37
Post by: oddbod on August 15, 2014, 21:29:12
I don't know how the exhaust valve works but I've had mine adjusted already. It made no difference.
Tim, I will try adjusting the slack on the throttle tmrw to see if that fine tunes the response further. I have already primed my dealer that if the spluttering/farting/about to cut out is still there when I return from the alps then I will be taking up the issue again.
Its interesting though, that it now only seems to want to cut out after periods of slow moving/waiting in traffic. And this seems to be creeping back more and more regular.
Hopefully putting a couple of thousand miles on the bike next week may help iron out the issues.
Update will follow in a cpl of weeks when I return.
Post by: Sharpy on August 26, 2014, 12:20:30
Post by: breathnach on September 09, 2014, 16:36:47
I was wondering how your reflash fix was holding up regarding the backfire/stalling. I am having the same problem with my 2014 V Strom 1000. The first thing my dealer did was adjust the throttle bodies which he said were out. Bike ran well for the 1st week and then started to regress. Issue seems to be definitely related to bikes backfiring. If bike backfires and I happen to open throttle at just the right time it's like someone blew out a candle and the bike stalls. Somedays it's worse than others, all depends on if bike is backfiring or not.
I am considering a Yosh pipe and reflash at the same time so wanted to see how your bike was behaving.
Thanks
Post by: oddbod on September 09, 2014, 17:23:39
I'm extremely glad I had the remap done as it has enhanced the bike in so many ways (as prev detailed) but I guess this is the start of the ordeal again for me as cutting out is simply not good enough on a brand new bike.
Post by: fear_factory84 on September 21, 2014, 14:01:17
The heat from the engine was high, but it never backfired and no cut offs.
It definitely seems that my bike has not problems for now.
Post by: D0nw0n on October 12, 2014, 17:53:57
mine does it too. slow speed or starting to pull away misses or cuts out. I'm trying super unleaded to see if that improves it.
Post by: oddbod on October 12, 2014, 21:31:31
Might try a plug change as when I checked them last week they were ever so slightly light brown with slight hot spots on the ceramic.
Post by: grimcookie on October 16, 2014, 16:25:54
I do however think Suzuki need to look at fuel mapping because it is to lean!
Must say not very happy that a new bike had to go in to be set up correctly why wasn't it done at factory..
And Suzuki needs to sort out their marketing every biker we met had to be told what make it was.....
Post by: wunwinglow on November 21, 2014, 14:15:10
More news shortly....
PS Spain was freaking great...
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10702195_633073136811902_4701012708749234983_n.jpg?oh=9e3354eb3c4a0d6db67be6200aab3ada&oe=5516A269&__gda__=1427570947_ed15a9fc34be355cbb410ccb87347979)
Post by: wunwinglow on November 22, 2014, 20:09:42
More news as I have it....
Meantime, another pic from recent trip to Spain. Pete on his FJR and me on the Veek, Mallos de Riglos
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10624881_657626851023197_8458655329927741869_n.jpg?oh=1b10a57c8045f22841078ea0cbfd4c02&oe=54D853D1&__gda__=1426937575_203ade744fd1aa9e83dd242f47309d77)
Post by: Jacko on November 22, 2014, 21:51:18
Post by: wunwinglow on November 26, 2014, 16:33:13
This is really really disappointing. I had hoped for a reult like Candyfloss' earth solution, but no. The Veek is so outstandingly good in all respects, this low speed nastiness really is ruining the bike for me. If it comes back again, I'll be looking for something else.
Tim
Post by: Jacko on November 26, 2014, 16:37:17
Post by: wunwinglow on November 26, 2014, 17:22:19
I'll report back as the week progresses. And maybe post some vid if I can film anything useful.
Tim
Post by: CandyFloss on November 30, 2014, 21:58:58
Post by: UK_Vstrom650 on November 30, 2014, 22:10:09
Post by: wunwinglow on November 30, 2014, 23:51:28
Tim
Post by: Jacko on December 01, 2014, 11:21:55
Post by: wunwinglow on December 01, 2014, 13:35:02
Tim
Post by: wunwinglow on December 01, 2014, 13:54:00
Tim
Post by: 55JAMPOT on December 01, 2014, 14:36:34
Interesting (annoying/sad) to read the issues regarding the new 1000 strom, have had a 650 AL2 for almost a couple of years now and as you rightly say the engine is a peach and still is! (had posted my thoughts on it in the early days under 'vee or wee'), the only fault I can find with the bike is a slight vibration caused by the crash bars fitted, dissappears completely when the bars are removed, an issue highlighted elsewhere on this site, I had a 2002 vee before and some of the issues your experiencing now were present in that bike, it needed very careful balancing every year to stop the coughing and backfiring, (very nearly blew the rear injector body off in Italy!!) and would vibrate/shudder horribly if it was revving too low, even at 70 in top gear up a hill, annoyed me sooo much in the end I traded it in for the 650.
I guess my point is would you be happy with the 650? it is a very fine bike but personally I still miss the overtaking grunt of the thou and I'm sure a well set up 1000 would be a joy, I rang a dealer only this morning inquiring about trading in my little 650 for a 1000 but reading all this post I think I may hang fire a bit longer.
I wish you the best of luck in getting your bike running right but it should run perfect straight from the crate like the 650.
I guess some dealers know how to set them up and others don't, how about could starting a list of where good 2014 vstrom 1000 dealer/mechanics are.
Don
Post by: wunwinglow on December 01, 2014, 16:25:04
I was really impressed with the DL650. I just know I am going to be equally delighted with MY bike, when it DOES get sorted! I'll keep you posted....
Tim
PS I rode Frasers demo Veek last week, and it was just like the DL650, so I know it isn't me......
Post by: 55JAMPOT on December 01, 2014, 19:10:48
I also test rode the Veek earlier in the year from Groombridges in Sussex, I thought as first it was good but lacked a bit of excitement till I spotted a Triumph of some sort in the distance, gave it the beans and boy it proper went....and handled....and smoked the Triumph through the twisties....and stopped! The dealer was still asking top dollar then so I held off, then back home on the 650 thinking to myself this isn't too shabby either, but as us old buggers say there's no substitute for cubes. now I'm reading of these problems so its putting me off a bit but as you say they can't all be wonky, so..Anyone want to buy a pristine 650 al2 'adventure' with just 4800 miles in white????
Don
Post by: wunwinglow on December 01, 2014, 22:56:04
Here's the proof!
(https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/1517464_657637044355511_6803639853203301537_n.jpg?oh=7769d41c5b6d4524a8c602510e3df987&oe=551DD5B8)
(https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1507184_657635857688963_5332209540995838276_n.jpg?oh=b643a44e2e77f8fbcda4b335f3ce34d1&oe=54D52C16)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1527120_630628370389712_8978942638910106268_n.jpg?oh=af2b2caf9ee2af8f7209cdf39e27a7cd&oe=5506AD72&__gda__=1427174715_9107aa5e47f29f3c600c804be9013ccd)
I'm going to sort this........
Tim
Post by: oddbod on December 02, 2014, 07:52:21
what I can say is the last time the dealer had the bike for rectification purposes, they cleaned up the earth lead, examined the bike & took it for a 90 mile test ride in varying traffic conditions. They presented me with a work sheet stating "no fault, bike is in perfect running order".
I ride the bike home and yes, the next day waiting at traffic lights, quick blip on the throttle ready for pull away and it cuts out!
Am considering lifting the tank and checking the tightness of the throttle body sleeves, changing the plugs and may even swap the earth lead.
If that doesn't work then I guess the only avenue I have left is returning the bike.
Like wunwinglow. In all other aspects the bike is perfect, hence why I have stuck with it so long. In any other circumstance it would have been sitting back in the dealers two weeks after I purchased it as I would have returned it.
Post by: wunwinglow on December 04, 2014, 11:06:58
Anyway, adjusting out as much of the slack in the throttle cable does seem to sort out a good deal of my particular issues, I'm just concerned that it not being 'to the book' might lead to other issues.
I still get this nasty rev drop occasionally however, so that looks to be something else entirely.
Any thoughts anyone?
Tim
PS Anyone going to the Bristol Advanced Motorcyclists Super Sunday meeting this coming Sunday? I'd really appreciate some second opinions on this!!
http://bam-members.org.uk/?page_id=13
Post by: SimonW on December 04, 2014, 13:14:41
Quote from: "wunwinglow"
<snip> Any thoughts anyone? <snip>Yes, I think you've been incredibly patient and this is entirely Suzuki's problem. They ought to be resolving it, either directly or via their dealer network. I am never keen on quoting this, or using it early in the process of trying to rectify problems, but under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 goods must be "as described, of satisfactory quality and fit for purpose". I don't think anyone could reasonably disagree that the symptoms you continue to experience render the bike not fit for purpose. It is a great shame, since clearly a lot of other owners (me included) do not suffer from the same symptoms. It is a great bike and the problems are obviously resolvable (given that not everyone suffers), even if that means replacing the entire bike with another one.
Post by: oddbod on December 04, 2014, 13:39:44
I too adjusted off the slack on the throttle cable and although this reduced the cut outs it did not cure them.
Simon W
Your point is spot on.
The reason I decided to purchase a brand new bike was based around the fact that I have a demanding job that is too far to commute by motorcycle on a daily basis. Therefore I only get weekends to enjoy my bike. What I was expecting to do was, start my bike, ride my bike, return home. What I find myself doing is spending far too may hours trying to sort out my bike's problems.
If I wanted to do this sort of thing I would have purchased an old one to do up and play with as per my youth days.
The result for me is definitely "Not fit for Purpose" both mechanically an socially. Which is a great shame because the bike is so great in every other aspect.
I will be getting Christmas out the way and resolving this issue once and for all in the New Year.
My dealer has declared the bike Fit for Purpose so I guess its direct to Suzuki with this issue for me from now on. Unless of course a miraculous cure is found.
Regards,
A very sad Oddbod
Post by: Timmo on December 04, 2014, 19:14:58
Post by: alan29 on December 04, 2014, 20:02:08
This tale is one of the main reason that Suzuki won't be getting ten thousand of my pounds for a while - no matter how many free extras they throw at the bike.
Shocking.
Post by: bigpie on December 04, 2014, 23:06:11
Post by: oddbod on December 05, 2014, 10:56:37
- Slacken off the throttle cable
- Check the throttle body sleeves are tightly on
- Change the spark plugs
- If I have one more cut out, then return the bike to dealer
- Contact consumer rights professional
Fingers crossed points 1-3 do the job. If not then points 3-4 will be carried out.
Cheers everyone. I will update with progress
Post by: Oop North John on December 05, 2014, 11:05:07
Following that logic, a few people have accidents whilst on the road, best not ride on the road :old:
Even the vee, wee and glee have had problems ....
Post by: alan29 on December 05, 2014, 11:25:20
Post by: Brockett on December 05, 2014, 11:44:18
I cannot agree with the view of another contributor that just because it stutters and cuts out and the dealer can't fix it I should give it the benefit of the doubt ( it might be a one off rogue) and invest £10,000.
That kind of fault will require a change of riding/control. My old brain needs to be focused on the important stuff like staying safe and not getting lost and not being distracted by worrying about the engine cutting out.
Would we be happy with a new TV if it cut out two or three times a night.
No, we'd take it straight back.
I'll not be buying a Veek.
Post by: frez on December 05, 2014, 12:04:58
Post by: Firestorm on December 05, 2014, 12:30:15
The one I rode was brilliant - no issues at all. The one that went to Japan (now that's a real test ride) - no issues. Is that because they were set up properly from the outset or blind luck?
Come on Suzuki - if you are reading this, get it sorted. Tell everyone what the problem is/was when you've fixed it, look after the Beta testers PROPERLY and sell more Bikes!
Post by: bosnjo on December 05, 2014, 14:04:11
I have really good relationship with my dealer, I mean the owner of the shop. He is Suzuki dealer and at the same time he races in motocross and takes care of mechanical issues of some racing (track racing) motorcycles. He owns Dyno himself and has great knowledge of motorcycle engines. He is not big dealer but he has sold 8 new Vee's since August this year. Mine was the second.
Now, he informed me that he was scheduled to get full specific training on new model DL1000, by the end of December 2014 (this month) and bring new maintenance software to his shop at the same time. Just few days ago, he was informed that the training was posponed until the end of February 2015 because there are some serious upgrades and changes on new model, and they are not ready yet. The idea is to get dealers trained to introduce those changes and upgrades after the training. Now, he really doesn't know what changes and upgrades are those and the only thing we can do, is to wait.
I was the first one to install Arrow exhaust. Few days later, and after my bike was seen at the front of the dealer's shop, he sold two more bikes and both clients wanted exhaust like mine. The dealer, just out of fun, decided to put one of those bikes on Dyno before and after exhaust swap, to see if there was any significant change. What he told me was the piece of information that confirms our suspicions. After exhaust change, the bike "breathes" a bit better, but nothing significant, but the important thing was, he said, the bike has soooooo poor mixture on low throttle opening and he will not rest untill he gets green light from main Suzuki importer to play with it a bit.
My bike has 3.000 km's on the clock. It has never had "idle hammer". It did have very jerky throttle on low throttle opening and "on/off" effect, but that cured 90% by itself and it's very smooth now. From time to time, it did stall during manouvering and on very few ocasions I almost went down as the bike was leaning (getting out of my garage on sharp right turn on steep rump uphill). Since cold days arrived, it has never missed a beat, even when I really tried to stall it by blipping the throttle. To me, it has been proven that colder air (more dense air) helps on the issue.
Am I right if I say that with more dense air (cold air) ECU makes richer mixture to match it?
So, let's hope by the end of February we get some news.
Post by: wunwinglow on December 05, 2014, 15:31:14
I wonder if I'll get any recognition as a Beta-tester? I wonder indeed.....
Tim
Post by: wunwinglow on December 05, 2014, 15:32:43
If so, I'll scan and upload them.
Tim
Post by: Jacko on December 05, 2014, 15:59:19
Quote from: "Oop North John"
I'm shocked at people who based on a few people having problems with their bike, won't buy one :shock:
Following that logic, a few people have accidents whilst on the road, best not ride on the road :old:
Even the vee, wee and glee have had problems ....
Why? Potential problems put folk off. There are many other bikes to consider, your road/accident analogy does work because there aren't hundreds of other road networks to use if you don't want to use the one that's crashed on frequently.
Post by: CandyFloss on December 05, 2014, 16:35:55
When I popped into the Dealership a Few days before to report how pleased I was with the bikes performance it was funny that when I was talking to one of the Staff he asked me if I was considering changing the exhaust?
I said that I wasn't at present but he replied that I'd find it may "Free up the engine". So Bosnjo you may have hit on something.
This is all such a shame because like everyone else who has reported problems think that it is such an excellent bike. Can't get my head around that some have no issues at all with theirs. We few are just unlucky. CF
Post by: MartinW on December 05, 2014, 16:44:24
:shrug:
Post by: mr_diver on December 05, 2014, 17:15:25
As I stated early in this thread that my 650 did this when I ajustes the TPS badly and cocked up the mixture.
Post by: tallpaul on December 05, 2014, 17:35:22
Post by: Firestorm on December 05, 2014, 19:18:00
Post by: TLPower on December 05, 2014, 19:20:48
The original TL1000 (1st use of the Suzuki V twin) suffered from the same maladies. Early fixes included an earth lead per cylinder head and additional earth leads from the coil mounts. Earth leads ran back to the battery.
They also made 120+ bhp. :)
Post by: Jacko on December 05, 2014, 19:23:40
Post by: alan29 on December 05, 2014, 23:52:16
I wonder why.
Post by: sharealike on December 06, 2014, 01:26:33
Quote from: "oddbod"
New year resolution for me then.Slacken off the throttle cable
Check the throttle body sleeves are tightly on
Change the spark plugs
If I have one more cut out, then return the bike to dealer
Contact consumer rights professional
Fingers crossed points 1-3 do the job. If not then points 3-4 will be carried out.
Cheers everyone. I will update with progress
There comes a time when faulty products have to go back. I sympathise with dealers who have to support such products but they know the score. Get the bike back to them and leave a letter stating you reject the bike before six months is up. Templates on citizens advice website. Include earlier attempts they made to fix it with dates. Before six months its up to them to prove the fault was not there when they supplied it. After six months its up to you to prove it was there when new which is very hard to do. With that letter and bike returned their only way out is give you your money back. They might try to turn to their advantage and trade you another bike but be certain you get what you paid back in real terms. Be prepared for them to argue that you had some use and bike has wear and tear. Your response is that much of that has been in riding back and forward to them and road testing their claimed fixs which have not worked.
Make an appointment by telephone with the owner or one of the partners and take a witness with you. If they don't show up then make another appointment and add to your letter that they missed the appointment and put the reason why. Doing this in winter when you need less use of the bike is the best time. Takes some guts but the only way to force their hand into paying up. With luck a wise dealer will be armed with your bikes value and have offers in his mind and meet you in his office. Explore the offers and don't be rushed. Go prepared with what you want. You have the upper hand for just once when negotiating with a dealer.
Post by: wunwinglow on December 06, 2014, 11:52:24
Here is a Dyno plot of my bike as it was tested in July, after Frasers had adjusted, then unadjusted the TPS, but BEFORE any adjustments were made to the ECU.
(https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/t31.0-8/1957793_666306403488575_7383357169826980637_o.jpg)
The upper graph shows power and torque, with revs along the bottom. The lower graph is the Air/Fuel ratio, in otherwords leanness, with the higher the graph, the leaner the mix. As you can see, this is utterly off the scale, so dreadfully lean until the engine is almost at 4000 revs.
Here is a plot of the engine AFTER the remap, with the red and brown lines showing the power and torque profiles, compared with the original ones, in blue. Quite a difference, I think you will agree. This is why both Odbod and I have commented, the remap makes a MASSIVE improvment in the smoothness and controlability of OUR bikes, compared with how they were before the remap. I have no idea if newer bikes have had their stock maps improved by Suzuki, but my bike was quite a handful throughout its rev range before the remap.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/t31.0-8/10620183_666306780155204_6909321198983703843_o.jpg)
I am chuffed to bits with the bike OVERALL. I do NOT want to swap it for a different bike, I want my bike to work over its entire rev range, and this is where the problem lays. Below 2700 revs, (and yes, I know that is where V twins can struggle a bit.....) the revs are still vague, unstable, seem to bear little relationship to the throttle position, still will drop, instantly, to idle, and are difficult to pick up again so matching revs to selected gear is messy. It seems to drop to nothing when neutral is selected, for example.
Now, if this is some clever, 'helpful' device, I'd like it switched off please. I'm skilled enough, and mature enough, to decide for myself what revs I want. Call me an old fuddy duddy if you like, but I think the throttle should be in control of the revs, not have something else cutting in without my say-so. Don't patronise me, in other words... And yes, I know the ABS and Traction Control do this, but I understand how and when they work, and why.
If it is some actual fault, a sticky TPS, a weak return spring, a dirty jet, a leaky air pipe, whatever, I want it fixed.
I'll be at the Bristol BAM Super Sunday meeting tomorrow, if anyone wants to try the bike! I really would appreciate some second opinions....
Tim
Post by: MartinW on December 06, 2014, 12:04:21
Listen up to the bad press Mr Suzuki and go fix it.
Post by: sharealike on December 06, 2014, 12:22:03
The letter of rejection route lets you have your money back to spend on a replacement. It also lets you have them exchange it for another new one. If you paid full whack the dealer can source a new one now for a good deal less. Proof being that eBay is full of them at Suzuki dealerships. Better still you can have close to your full whack back from the original dealer and go buy from somewhere else with something in your pocket for your trouble. See how in the first six months the boot is firmly on your foot to get them to take you seriously. And so it should be when £10k's worth of Suzuki is causing such grief.
Bear in mind they might never get some of these bikes to run properly through official Suzuki channels. Emissions law probably says they can't legally tinker with the fuelling outside the standard approved mapping.
Post by: greywolf on December 06, 2014, 12:42:32
Quote from: "alan29"
This doesn't seem to be such an issue in the USA, judging by the lack of mentions on Stromtroopers.I'm thinking the Euro emissions laws are stricter than the EPA regulations.
I wonder why.
Post by: Fat Rat on December 06, 2014, 13:01:40
I also hope that other owners support your case by admitting there is a problem rather than making Suzuki's defence much easier.
Post by: alan29 on December 06, 2014, 14:22:38
Quote from: "greywolf"
If that's the reason there is no excuse. The EU didn't spring the regs on Suzuki by surprise.Quote from: "alan29"This doesn't seem to be such an issue in the USA, judging by the lack of mentions on Stromtroopers.I'm thinking the Euro emissions laws are stricter than the EPA regulations.
I wonder why.
Post by: wunwinglow on December 06, 2014, 17:01:14
Oh, and remember Geoff at Hilltop jumped off the bike on its first dyno run, because he was so surprised at how lean it was running, he thought the sensor had fallen out of the exhaust pipe. I suspect there were actually several things up with the bike, some part of the emissions-compliant set up, and others actual faults, and I've been dealing with a mixture of issues which is why it has been so tricky to track down.
I'll keep you posted with progress. And anyone thinking of getting one, don't let my experiences put you off at least a test ride. Otherwise, this is a great bike, honest!
Greywolf, Perhaps the regulations are different, but what would be really nice to know is if US bikes are set up in any different way to Euro ones.... Therein might lay the answers!!
Tim
Post by: Oop North John on December 06, 2014, 17:15:31
http://www.stromtrooper.com/dl1000a-201 ... shift.html (http://www.stromtrooper.com/dl1000a-2014/186930-stall-down-shift.html)
Post by: oddbod on December 06, 2014, 18:08:39
I too am of the opinion of wunwinglow. I don't really want to give back my Veek. Apart from this random cutting out the bike is perfect in every way, esp after the remap.
Interesting that across the pond (as per oop north johns post) someone has suggested taking a look at the side stand switch. Shall take a look in the morn and revert back
Post by: greywolf on December 06, 2014, 18:30:43
Post by: bosnjo on December 06, 2014, 18:40:31
My "almost stall" thing happens in average once a week. Sidestand switch was rulled out as I had it shortened for few weeks but "almost stall" happened anyway.
Mine actually stalled only once since I own it and luckily it happened while slowly crawling in straight line in Car park. The stall was provoked by myself blipping the throttle.
Now, there is something I discovered:
I learned, when it is about to stall, to quickly back off and back on the throttle and it will keep it from stalling completely. But, that is pure luck. I'm fortunate to have the problem only once a week. But, every time it is about to happen, I first hear not loud metallic "clack" from the engine and I know it wants to stall, so I have enough time to recover it.
Then, I found out that there is a way to replicate that "clack" from the engine and I did demonstrate it to a dealer. It's done with the bike warmed up, stationary, and by bliping the throttle. Dealer did say I was not supposed to blip the throttle on big V-Twin but I told him I was doing it to replicate the sound. And it did replicate.
Here is what I was doing:
- Bike running stationary on idle, engine fully warmed up
- Blip the throttle quickly and back off
- Let it calm down for at least 10 seconds
- Blip the throttle again
I had to do it 10 times and then that sound was audible, bike didn't stall completely, but almost did, it did recovered by itself. Next 10 blips it was OK and then we heard the "clack" again and it almost stalled. Then we tried the same test with sidestand on, sidestand off, neutral clutch closed, neutral clutch open, in gear holding the clutch... It didn't metter. In 20 minutes of testing, the symptoms were the same regardless of those other things. Sadly, it didn't stall completely so my dealer coud see it, but at least he could hear that sound and see the engine almost stall.
Just about the sound, I first thought it was metallic sound, then I was not sure if it was metallic or like air bubble releasing from somewhere. But the important thing is, the sound is there every time the engine was about to stall.
I have Arrow exhaust since day one. Maybe the bike doesn't stall completely thanks to exhaust but I'm not sure.
Maybe you other owners can perform the same test, let's see who has that wierd sound.
Post by: Brockett on December 06, 2014, 19:10:51
Do motorcycle ECU systems work like that?
If, and it's big 'if', the gizmo in the ecu that detects the car is in gear has an intermittent fault, then the ECU will close off the fuel supply when idling in neutral and the engine will stall.
However I refer you to my opening words......
The "Blue Slug" a.k.a. my Honda Jazz ticks over fine and it runs fine. However it has always exhibited a desire to stall as the accelerator peddle is pressed. I have got used to it now and it is regular every time I drive it so not related to this topic.
I spoke to my local dealer about the problems some owners are having and he said he'd never heard of it.
Post by: oddbod on December 06, 2014, 19:14:37
Post by: oddbod on December 06, 2014, 19:27:07
Post by: bosnjo on December 06, 2014, 19:34:57
Quote from: "oddbod"
Interesting you have changed the exhaust. I considered changing the exhaust also, to see whether this would help. wasn't sure which one to use and was also mindful of spending almost £500 on a poss solution that may or may not work.This is the one I've got, from this very shop, much less money then you're thinking about.
https://www.motorraiz.com/silencioso-maxi-race-tech-arrow-aluminio-dark-fondo-carbono-ref71816akn-p-19424.html?osCsid=0euafl4freh24c666dbl8lqf87
Here it is installed on my bike, without db killer, so free flow is much better:
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/bosnjo3/DL1000%202014/DSC00130_zps83228e59.jpg)
Post by: UK_Vstrom650 on December 06, 2014, 19:36:19
Post by: Oop North John on December 06, 2014, 19:45:48
Quote from: "oddbod"
Out of interest I had previously narrowed my choice of exhaust to Arrow or Remus
A cheaper option:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/361040918558? ... EBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/361040918558?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
I'm trying to work out, apart from looks ie carbon / titanium & name, what a couple of hundred quid gets you :shrug:
Post by: Fat Rat on December 06, 2014, 20:08:05
Post by: oddbod on December 06, 2014, 20:59:27
Thanks for the links chaps.
will also check out mtc as fat rat suggests.
Post by: Blade on December 06, 2014, 22:03:20
Post by: Oop North John on December 07, 2014, 08:09:09
Post by: alan29 on December 07, 2014, 09:28:58
Post by: Frankenstrom on December 07, 2014, 10:32:00
With all the noise on here it's getting pretty difficult to actually tell.
Post by: oddbod on December 07, 2014, 10:56:05
Heres my take on it.
Having ridden for over 30 years I know when a bike is running too lean in low revs. In the old days of riding tuned two strokes with carburettors I had this very same issue but worse. Then of course it was a simple fix of putting a larger pilot jet in the carb and this solved the problem. However, on a modern bike such as this its not quite as easy to do this.
My bike has a tendancy to cut out when rolling of the throttle in low gears and even randomly cuts out when stationary from time to time. However, it is not an everyday occurrence. Because it is random it is hard to replicate the issue. I have tried tightening the slack in the throttle cable, which made it worse, I have tried adapting riding style to pull the clutch in earlier and keep the revs up, which helps but is not ideal. I considered a new exhaust to allow better flowing of exhaust gases as it coukd be a back pressure issue. But to be honest due the randomness I don't think the exhaust will solve it, perhaps it may help it a little.
Could it be a faulty/sticky TPS, could it be this, could it be that?
With my dealer unable to replicate the issue and giving my bike a clean bill of health its hard to think what next to do.
Perhaps a new exhaust may help, who knows?
Perhaps purchasing a new TPS may help.
Post by: sharealike on December 07, 2014, 11:06:37
There could be something in this throttle blipping theory. I have an SV engine where idle speed is set with a scew by the owner. Am I right in thinking the new Strom has this set by the ECU? In other words no screw.
If I slow my engine idle down to half what it should be to say 500 rpm it will make that metallic clack described and then stall. No matter how you try to catch it by opening the throttle its very hard to avoid the stall. I put the noise down to the decompressors holding two exhaust valves open once below 500 rpm. Only having the engine driven by the starter motor or by the road passing by the back wheel will get the engine back above the 500 rpm so the decompressors let the two exhaust valves close and the engine run as it should.
Riding my SV with idle set low at 1100 rpm invites some stalls much as described here. Stalls accompanied by the metallic clack. Raise idle to 1200 or above which is still within book spec and all is fine with no stalls or clacks ever. I'm thinking your dangerous stalling at least might be reduced or eradicated all together if you can get the idle speed up by as little as even 100 rpm. The higher the natural idle the more time due to momentum in the engine has stored to carry it over until the ECU opens the throttle a whisker to compensate. That's what an ECU controlled idle speed does. Constantly checks the idle speed and opens or closes a throttle to keep it where the book says it should be.
A further complication with modern ECU's is that some do cut the fuel supply completely when the bike is driving the engine such as when on the overun. Blipping the throttle simulates being on the overrun as far as the ECU is concerned. Throttle is shut and the other signal of high inlet manifold vacuum is there to kid the ECU you are going down hill with no need of fuel. In the riding situation the whole bikes momentum caries the engine speed until the ECU turns the fuel back on when the throttle opens or the on let vacuum decays. Only the engines own flywheel momentums carry the engine on until the fuel arrives in the throttle blip scenarios.
It would not surprise me if idle speed were one of the parameters that could be adjusted by someone with the right bit of kit.
The point I make here is that an already weak idle both in terms of mixture and power only needs the slightest upset so it misfires once and the engine is in trouble because the ECU can't catch it and the decompressor kicking in kills it dead. SV and first DL engines used to keep a little too much fuel going in all the time at idle to keep it robust so to speak. That PAIR system used to pump fresh air into the exhaust to keep it clean enough to not stink and perhaps pass a sniffer up the exhaust test for hydrocarbons
Just ideas and food for thought.
Post by: Oop North John on December 07, 2014, 11:20:56
1 - Can the throttle cables be adjusted to tweak the idle speed up, or is the ECU clever enough to know what it wants the engine to do and sets the idle irrespective of throttle cable postion?
2 - On the BM oilheads it was well known that the ECU needed to relearn the throttle position, so after disconnecting the battery / messing about with exhausts etc there was a need to fully open and close the throttle a couple of times. Might doing that help for this problem?
Post by: Oop North John on December 07, 2014, 11:27:18
Quote from: "oddbod"
Unfortunately I am one of the poor bastards that has been affected by this issue.
With so many off topic posts in this thread I'd loose the will to live reading them all again, so if you've already posted the answer to my question please accept my apologies. Have you ridden other 2014 DL1000's, and do they do the same when you're riding them?
Post by: sharealike on December 07, 2014, 11:45:12
Quote from: "Oop North John"
Two thoughts after Sharealike's post:
1 - Can the throttle cables be adjusted to tweak the idle speed up, or is the ECU clever enough to know what it wants the engine to do and sets the idle irrespective of throttle cable postion?
2 - On the BM oilheads it was well known that the ECU needed to relearn the throttle position, so after disconnecting the battery / messing about with exhausts etc there was a need to fully open and close the throttle a couple of times. Might doing that help for this problem?
1 Don't do it. Idea of play in the cable is so the throttle is not affected as you steer. Increase or decrease in engine speed as you steer is going to make for one beast of a bike in tight maneuvers. TPS tells ECU I'm in idle position. Do we know if idle is by screw or ECU?
Just another question. Does the new engine have PAIR? My guess is no and they brought in the new twin plugs and ECU to clean up the exhaust at idle.
Post by: Frankenstrom on December 07, 2014, 12:11:20
Quote from: "oddbod"
Unfortunately I am one of the poor bastards that has been affected by this issue.
I am sadly all to aware of that. I didn't mean any disrespect. You and Tim's posts are 'evidence', definitely not noise.
Good to see constructive on topic responses too (except, ironically, this one... :shy: )
As a confirmed forthcoming Veek owner I am also keen to see this issue resolved!
Post by: bosnjo on December 07, 2014, 12:13:16
Now we have to try to rise idle by 100 rpm and keep it stable there and see if it helps.
We just need to find out how. I know it can be done by changing angle of TPS but I don't even know how it's done on new DL1000. It looks like by software only. I just don't know.
Post by: UK_Vstrom650 on December 07, 2014, 12:24:42
For those who read my 7.5k Glee service issue, the dealer insisted it was fine, suggested I spend money on a new chain and sprockets which might fix the issue (I didn't) and it was only through my persistence that they eventually looked into it and eventually admitted there was an issue, stating the fault was down to incorrect sparkplugs being listed in the service manual. (The dealer claimed they stripped down a demo bike and swapped components such as the TPS and test rode it after each change)
I appreciate the comments re: I want my bike working and I'd feel the same, however that would not stop me taking the bike back and asking for it to be fixed, replaced or having my money back. And I'm sure Suzuki would rather fix the problem than replace the bike. If 6 months is the cut off to do this I'd be getting on it because I know if this issue persisted with my bike I'd end up hating it and regretting buying it which would be a shame.
As I've said already, the demo Veek I tried in the summer was fantastic and didn't miss a beat however if I had the ££££s to buy one I'd be waiting to make sure these issues were being resolved first in case I was unlucky to receive one of the lemons.
Post by: sharealike on December 07, 2014, 15:04:24
If you got a faulty bike then for the first six months its up to the dealer to prove it was not faulty when supplied. After that its up to you to prove it was faulty when supplied. If there is record of them trying to fix it in the first six months, then that should be proof enough it was wrong when supplied and not a new fault. There's a case not far back in this thread where a dealer has ridden it close to 100 miles and provided a report that all was well in that test ride. Fault there or not that reads to me like a dealer trying to protect himself from any come back into the future.
Fact is this stall might only occur in situations the dealer did not recreate in the test ride. He would probably use fast roads to get some miles in (like Suzuki might on their factory test track) and my guess is this happens in town when you need fine low speed control such as at junctions etc. If its the typical heavy bike with a large capacity V twin engine stall I'm thinking of its very dangerous. It stalls and you can't get the clutch in quick enough nor get your foot down and muscle enough strength up in your leg to prevent losing your balance. Bike falls over straight into the path of a passing car that anticipated you would be out of the way by the time they got to you. A stalling car just stops. A stalling motorbike does the same but suddenly becomes four times as wide as it was into the bargain. And unlike a car you don't have half a ton of cage round you as a buffer. Its dangerous Suzuki. And if emissions regulations say we can't have a rich bottom end to the engine fuelling for a safety net then we all have a potential problem into the future.
I think the new bike has all the makings of a brilliant bike. Come on Suzuki. The price in nearly right. All you need do is convince me this glitch is understood and sorted out and I'm in.
Post by: sharealike on December 07, 2014, 16:23:15
"Advanced Idle Speed Control - The idle speed control unit is built into the secondary throttle valves of the Suzuki Dual Throttle Valves (SDTV)".
I interpret this as there being a little electric motor that constantly adjust the equivalent of your old throttle stop screw according to what the ECU thinks the idle speed should be. The same motors, one each cylinder adjusts the SDTV's which are those large flaps in the throttle bodies (always there in the old engine) that only move with large changes in throttle opening. In other words the motor controlling your idle speed will be disturbed and have to rush back to that job quickly after you just blipped the throttle. Perhaps OK with changes to throttle position as you ride and then slow to a halt and need idle control. Not so good blipping the throttle while stationary or just as you are about to take off. The SDTV's motors were always used before to increase idle speed while cold. Seems they are now used for idle speed adjustment all the time.
Post by: greywolf on December 07, 2014, 17:10:01
Post by: SimonW on December 07, 2014, 17:23:20
Quote from: "sharealike"
We all need to bear in mind its your dealers workshop staffs job to bring some money in for the business as a whole. They have to be salesmen just like the staff at the clean end of the operation. Second thing on the blokes mind in the workshop is spending lots of unpaid time diagnosing your intermittent fault. If he can spin you into having lots of paid work done on the back of the stock bike having problems then he will.Slight correction: he might. Not all dealers work this way - mine certainly doesn't.
And you're right in that no trade likes an intermittent problem because they're often expensive (for the business) to try to resolve.
Post by: Timmo on December 07, 2014, 23:28:55
Post by: Oop North John on December 08, 2014, 07:29:15
Quote from: "Timmo"
It seems there are more rogue veerks out there than thought. Can we do a roll call of veeks without problems to put this in perspective as I really want to buy one but am being put off.
Pointless doing a poll as there may be 100 owners not on this site who have had no problem, another 100 on this site who have had no problem but don't want to respond to the poll, two on the site who do want to respond to the poll and haven't had a problem, and another two who do want to respond to the poll and have had a problem. And that means, according to the poll 50% of the veeks have a problem. Or 1% have had a problem based on those who haven't responded, based on my hypothetical figures.
I suspect the actual problematic number is nearer 1% than 50%, which doesn't mean it's not a 100% PITA for those owners of bikes who aren't 100% happy.
BTW I agree with Benjamin Disraeli's take on statistics :thumb:
Post by: tallpaul on December 08, 2014, 07:35:06
Post by: SimonW on December 08, 2014, 09:22:03
I don't have any stalling, cutting out, popping etc.
I do have a *slightly* harsh on/off throttle at low revs, but since turning the TC down I'm not sure I'd describe it as a problem.
Post by: Timmo on December 08, 2014, 10:13:38
Post by: Oop North John on December 08, 2014, 11:17:02
Quote from: "Timmo"
So onj has a rogue
:shrug:
Post by: wunwinglow on December 08, 2014, 11:51:41
Tim
Post by: wunwinglow on December 08, 2014, 12:37:31
Tim
Post by: Firestorm on December 08, 2014, 13:16:19
Post by: wunwinglow on December 08, 2014, 13:46:58
Post by: Oop North John on December 08, 2014, 17:26:01
http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=753622 (http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=753622)
so if I had a bike with the problems I'd be asking them to change the plugs, leads and the ignition coils. If nothing else, they could swap them from their demo onto your bike, assuming you can have a ride on the demo bike to make sure it's not the same.
Post by: bosnjo on December 08, 2014, 18:21:45
Post by: Timmo on December 08, 2014, 18:36:18
Quote from: "wunwinglow"
And Timmo, perhaps you could let Suzuki you are being put off their product because of this?! That might gee them up a bit...No point,they are aware and they will probably just bring out another 1000 beige with pink dots or something rather than fix the problem. If I hear the beige one has a problem as well it's the end for me. There's a couple of blokes on this forum who if locked in a Suzuki garage for two days would solve the problem the only way this has gone on is if it's a computer error a mechanical one could not go on like this.
Tim
Post by: oddbod on December 08, 2014, 18:38:48
Post by: alan29 on December 08, 2014, 19:09:51
Quote from: "Oop North John"
It seems that other engines exhibit what seems to me to be similar problems, eg:
http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=753622 (http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=753622)
so if I had a bike with the problems I'd be asking them to change the plugs, leads and the ignition coils. If nothing else, they could swap them from their demo onto your bike, assuming you can have a ride on the demo bike to make sure it's not the same.
You expect issues with a BMW, not with a Jap bike.
Post by: bosnjo on December 08, 2014, 19:12:53
Quote from: "oddbod"
Dint bother bosnjo. I've had my exexhaust flap tested. It only operates in 3rd gear at certain revs. The rest of the time it is fully open. I have taken the can off and looked for myself.Thanks
Post by: Blade on December 08, 2014, 20:13:37
Post by: UK_Vstrom650 on December 08, 2014, 20:53:18
Post by: oddbod on December 08, 2014, 21:09:03
can't see my dealer being that overjoyed with the idea though.
Definitely get the impression "we can't be bothered" when you filter through all the waffle and bullshit that's spulled out when trying to have a diagnostic conversation.
The sales bloke is decent enough but the mechanics are either not up to any form of advanced technical capability or simply not bothered.
As mentioned earlier in this post. If someone had the right equipment and a cpl of days spare locked in a workshop, this problem could be solved.
Perhaps its worth dropping my bike off at a specialist and sending my dealer/Suzuki the bill.
Food for thought perhaps??
Post by: oddbod on December 08, 2014, 21:10:22
Post by: wunwinglow on December 10, 2014, 12:31:19
Watch this space!
Tim
Post by: Oop North John on December 10, 2014, 13:04:30
Quote from: "wunwinglow"
Veek going back to Frasers on Saturday....
If the dealer doesn't have the problem when they test ride it, have you tried getting them on when you ride it?
Hope they sort the problem.
Post by: oddbod on December 10, 2014, 13:08:48
Everytime I drop it in they cannot re-create the issue, or so they say!
Good luck tomorrow wunwinglow. Keeps us updated if you can
Post by: alan29 on December 10, 2014, 13:37:41
Quote from: "oddbod"
Great idea Blade.Someone like Suzuki, maybe?
SNIP
As mentioned earlier in this post. If someone had the right equipment and a couple of days spare locked in a workshop, this problem could be solved.
Post by: Blade on December 10, 2014, 18:59:40
Post by: oddbod on December 10, 2014, 19:54:19
This wknd cold be update wknd from you and wunwinglow so cld be interesting.
Cheers blokes
Post by: Timmo on December 14, 2014, 21:57:55
Post by: UK_Vstrom650 on December 15, 2014, 08:52:16
Although I don't have a Veek am following this with interest as am trying to persuade the missus that I need an upgrade and Veek will be considered if the issue is resolved
Post by: Fat Rat on December 15, 2014, 11:55:46
The next time they want to use this site as a launching pad for their products I may just give them the same level of response :angry-tappingfoot:
Post by: Blade on December 15, 2014, 11:57:21
Post by: oddbod on December 15, 2014, 13:40:43
My dealer undertook those steps when I first reported there was an issue with my bike after a few weeks (back in April this year). I put it in for the 600 mile service and they advised they had contacted Suzuki who advised them to do the above. Balanced Throttle Bodies (apparently they were only slightly out), adjusted the TPS to 28.9, reset the ISC valve.
However, this made minimal difference. Hence the remap, which made a significant difference albeit the idle/low rev problem progressively crept back in over the next couple of months.
Since then, the bike has been back to the dealer more than once, whom advise that because they can't recreate the issue, it is probably rider related and therefore must be fit for purpose.
Unless I hear anything to the contrary via this site, by way of a miraculous fix, then 5 Jan is when I am picking this matter up again direct with Suzuki.
Post by: wunwinglow on December 15, 2014, 15:52:59
Tim
Post by: Timmo on December 15, 2014, 16:25:28
Post by: SimonW on December 16, 2014, 00:19:24
Post by: Timmo on December 16, 2014, 00:36:01
Post by: Blade on December 16, 2014, 07:24:42
Post by: oddbod on December 16, 2014, 08:18:53
Also, I'm a bit concerned whether the power commander would work on my bike as its already been remaped.
Tempting though
Post by: Oop North John on January 14, 2015, 12:50:40
Quote from: "wunwinglow"
I should hear from them tomorrow or Wednesday what they have found. I'll keep you posted.
Any news?
Post by: wunwinglow on January 14, 2015, 20:44:50
I have to say, the loan bike has been a revelation, although I always knew there was a cracking bike underneath the issue. I can't wait to get mine back, sorted! I'll keep you all posted......
Tim
Post by: UK_Vstrom650 on January 14, 2015, 20:54:42
Post by: Oop North John on January 14, 2015, 21:15:40
Post by: oddbod on January 14, 2015, 21:32:22
Lets hope Frasers identify which component or components are causing the issue.
I for one am very keen to find out so I can check to see whether it is the same component(s) that cause my bike's issue.
Many thanks for sharing your progress.
Beers all round for you if you get this sorted. I'll even ride down to your way to personally thank you.
Well done so far!!
Post by: bosnjo on January 14, 2015, 21:48:21
Post by: oddbod on January 14, 2015, 22:01:25
And we'll all be able to thank Wunwinglow for his perseverance!!!!
Post by: Roadrocket on January 15, 2015, 20:49:12
I've been thinking about the basic principles of IC engines and why they stall. I've got years of experience in tuning A -series Mini engines on Dynos but not V Twins lol, but I understand the principles of IC engines and they are the same for 4 stroke cycles although today, engines are running literally on air to cope with very tight emission regulations - the result is a nightmare of electronic control and regulation - made even more complex by auxiliary throttles and baffles. The very slightest increase in fuel at idle makes a huge difference to low speed throttle response, that could be one of the reason remapping has helped for some riders. But if owners have to fit a power commander to resolve the issue clearly Suzuki has some remapping to do. My friend had a TDM900 Yammy parallel twin, which had a remapping recall something to do with engine braking and idle issues. The remap made all the difference apparently.
Back firing is usually associated with retarded ignition timing if through the exhaust, if back firing through the air box, then its more than likely caused by a weak mixture particularly on low RPM / or during the engine being under no load.
Just thinking about the basics here...
From my experience if an engine is running too lean it will stall and "knock" from pre - ignition (pinking). If its running rich, it will hunt an produce a regular heavy pulsing exhaust note. One of the techniques for setting up carbs is snapping open the throttle and quickly releasing it, if the engine revs drop quickly or the engine stalls when the rpm reaches idle speed, then the mixture is too lean and needs to richer. One solution is increase the idle speed to establish a better air intake velocity at low rpm
I'm just sharing my thoughts here blokes..(I don't work for Suzuki..) A couple of things to consider with the new 1000 engine, firstly it has a heavier flywheel than any other Suzy V, secondly, the emissions are soo low at idle , I'm suprised the thing idles at all. From my experience, if there was an air leak between the throttle and cylinder head, the engine wouldn't idle full stop on a fuel injected engine or it would stall regularly. On a carb engine, a slight air leak may cause a rise in rpm resulting in an uneven rpm.
I'm thinking along the lines of when the throttle is blipped on the 1000, because of the large displacement and heavier bottom end coupled with the fact that the engine is a twin it won't like "short" low speed blips, particular as the air intake speed and fuel atomisation needs a short time to get regulated. I remember blipping the throttle on my Wee when changing down the gears and sometimes it would back fire into the airbox and miss a beat. Only ocasionally and only when I "blipped". Now a 4 cylinder or even triple has more power strokes per revolution, resulting in a freer , linear air flow. The cylinder displacement also is smaller. Any V twin won't take kindly to low speed short term throttle changes, without been given time to increase rpm.
It will be interesting to find the cause of some of the issues Veek owners are having. I'm friends with a local motorcycle engine builder who also has a dyno and years of experience in re-mapping. I'll have a chat with him, I'm sure he will be keen to have a further look.
Post by: Timmo on January 19, 2015, 21:36:29
Post by: oddbod on January 20, 2015, 07:56:36
Post by: wunwinglow on January 20, 2015, 15:31:14
One other thing Frasers noticed was that there are a number of electrical connectors gathered infront of the front cylinder, on top of a moulded plastic shield above the radiator. All the connectors had some green corrosion on them, so they were all cleaned and proofed with silicone. You can't see them unless you take the tank off, and although I had my bike ACF50 treated not long after I took delivery, this is obviously something to be watched. And regularly blasted with ACF50, WD40 or whatnot. Even with the shield, wet and road rubbish gets driven in, and because it is so awkward to get at, likely to be missed. I don't know if the actual problem was there, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
So, fingers crossed. And thanks indeed to the blokes at Frasers for keeping on with this one!
Tim
Post by: oddbod on January 20, 2015, 17:45:08
I shall eagerly await your next update in a week or two just to make sure it is fixed before I pay my dealer a visit requesting they do the same.
I do hope you have found the solution for all our sakes but especially yours for being the driving force recently.
All the best and fingers crossed.
Jeff
Post by: wunwinglow on January 21, 2015, 10:41:32
Wait for the next exciting report....
Tim
Post by: Oop North John on January 21, 2015, 11:19:23
Quote from: "wunwinglow"
Wait for the next exciting report....
No news = good news then :)
Post by: wunwinglow on January 21, 2015, 13:29:09
Tim
Post by: UK_Vstrom650 on January 21, 2015, 14:03:27
I do hope this issue resolves for all concerned as I know what a PITA it is having a bike not running properly from the sparkplug issue on the Glee
Post by: Timmo on January 21, 2015, 14:29:05
Post by: bosnjo on January 22, 2015, 17:44:33
Then he told me one more thing. Few months ago he had DL1000, but previous model, with same symptoms. Spent whole day trying everything but all was OK on the bike, computer returned no faults but the bike kept on showing those symptoms. Then, just as one more thing to try before closing for the day, he replaced clutch switch. He said he didn't believe that was the problem, as the original switch was working fine and we have no corosion here in the south. The original switch and all contacts looked as good as new, but he still gave it a go. And voila, problem was solved. He said he was mad. He tested the switch he removed million times on multimeter and it was fine. Few days ago, the same bike returned for scheduled service and he asked the owner about previous fault. Owner replied that the fault has never come back again. "Go figure!" he said...
Well, that's life, I guess. He was just telling me the story as one more thing to consider and I'm just transmitting what he said.
But he told me that he has to find out what was going on with new DL1000 as the bikes can't stay that way and customers have the right to have 100% operational rides.
In my opinion, we are slowly moving forward in finding the exact part to blame, thanks to blokes here that simply wouldn't give up and I can't stress enough how much I'm thankful for that.
Post by: CandyFloss on January 22, 2015, 18:02:32
Candy Floss.
Post by: bosnjo on January 22, 2015, 18:35:05
Post by: oddbod on January 22, 2015, 19:53:15
Candyfloss. As bosnjo said, is it possible to send a photo of how you put in a secondary earth lead?
Fingers crossed for wunwinglow's succesful test riding.
Post by: bosnjo on January 22, 2015, 20:01:08
Post by: oddbod on January 24, 2015, 18:46:52
Made some changes to the bike prior to today's ride.
1) New arrow exhaust (baffles still in)
2) Slackened off the throttle cable a tad
3) Traction control set to 2
Well I am pleasantly surprised. The ride was so much smoother in the lower revs, less jerky rolling on/off the throttle and no cut outs/farts or splutters.
Not sure whether the cold air has played a part in this and have also been here before many times, thinking it was fixed only for the issue to return a week later.
I would definitely say the exhaust has made a big difference though. Apart from sounding more grunty, the bike seemed to have a new found crispness with throttle response and was a lot easier to manage on slow manoeuvres.
I only clocked up 20 or so miles around town. Never got above 3rd gear. But historically this is when the bike plays up most, in and around town once warmed up.
Fingers crossed for a repeat performance next time I'm out on it.
Post by: bosnjo on January 24, 2015, 21:23:15
Post by: oddbod on January 24, 2015, 23:08:36
Before I start celebrating though. Do you still/have you had any cut outs with TC on 2 and arrow exhaust?
Please say NO!!
Post by: bosnjo on January 25, 2015, 10:59:42
I ride my bike every single day, just sometimes I let it rest during weekend. So, it'd be some 150 miles a week average. Cut-outs, average, would happen once a week. So it'd be one cut-out per every 150 miles, average again.
But, good news is that my engine hasn't shut down for last 3 months. At ocasions I feel it's going to stall, hearing that clonky sound coming somewhere from butterfly, I quickly "repeat" the accelerator, I mean rotate it OFF and ON quickly and engine doesn't stall.
Now, let's discount some obvious ocasions with cut-outs. Firstly, let's discount ocasions with bike rolling freely on idle, like approaching red light, when I just can't help it and have to blip the throttle. It hapens in those situations sometimes, and since I own the bike, engine did shut off completely in two of those ocasions.
Then, let's discount cold morning, 7ºC (it means cold here in south), engine completely cold, getting out of my garage, up the steep ramp and not revving the engine enough. Luckily for me, engine has never died there as that steep ramp has slow sharp turn and I'd be down instantly, but I did feel it'd go down so I just "repeat" my throttle and rev engine a bit more to save myself from going down on that damn ramp. When I remember to rev it higher on that exit, I have no problem, never.
So, if I discount those obvious situations (or, let's say, my faults), I could say I have "almost cut-out" only, in average, once a month or every 600-700 miles.
It has never hapened while filtering.
Post by: greywolf on January 25, 2015, 15:27:03
Post by: bosnjo on January 25, 2015, 15:48:38
Post by: greywolf on January 25, 2015, 16:27:11
Post by: bosnjo on January 25, 2015, 16:31:17
Post by: oddbod on January 25, 2015, 17:28:59
Post by: bosnjo on January 25, 2015, 17:55:25
I guess the parts is this:
SENSOR ASSY
13580-27G21
But it's be better if greywolf confirms that.
If you want one, just go to Suzuki dealer that doesn't know you. That way you don't need to explain anything.
Post by: oddbod on January 25, 2015, 20:01:03
Will wait fir greywolf or if he can't confirm will go to my useless dealer and get them to order for me.
I have a funny feeling the randomness cld be down to the TPS as happened so many times after the bike has been on a run or thoroughly warmed up via riding rnd town. Apparently that's classic TPS issue I read somewhere.
Post by: Oop North John on January 25, 2015, 20:20:05
http://www.stromtrooper.com/search.php?searchid=9755241 (http://www.stromtrooper.com/search.php?searchid=9755241)
Post by: bosnjo on January 25, 2015, 21:31:35
Are we getting closer?
Post by: bosnjo on January 25, 2015, 21:35:15
Post by: oddbod on January 25, 2015, 21:42:10
I will get one ordered and either fit it myself or have the poxy dealer fit it.
if this finally fixes the issue then, wham, we're laughing!!
Cheers for the part no's
Post by: bosnjo on January 25, 2015, 22:00:48
Or, at least, if you ever come to south of Portugal, I can buy you pint or two...
Post by: oddbod on January 25, 2015, 22:22:47
I think if it is the TPS then the credit wld be mainly greywolfs but thanks would also go to all the input from everyone on this thread as well.
I would still hold you to that pint though if I was passing through the south of Portugal. Might also be cheeky and ask for some peri peri chicken as well haha.
Had some in Albafuri a few years back. Delicious or what!!!!
Will keep you posted
Post by: greywolf on January 25, 2015, 22:27:06
Post by: oddbod on January 25, 2015, 22:44:28
Its only the random cut out/splutter at idle that pains me now.
If I can get that eliminated then I'll be over the moon. In every other area the bike is exceptional and a real joy.
Post by: wunwinglow on January 27, 2015, 12:08:14
It never rains but... I tried to switch the TC to 2 this morning, and the handlebar switch has frozen up!! Opening it up at lunchtime break, no doubt to see a heap of green fungus. Corrosion control on these bikes is rubbish!
Tim
Post by: bosnjo on January 27, 2015, 12:24:24
Got the bike from dealer, all stock. While I was waiting for bike to get ready, my Arrow exhaust had arrived already (to my house). The day I took the bike from the dealer (all stock), I didn't go straight home, but rather took a longer ride (as you'd expected). TC was on 1. I noticed big problem on roundabouts. If I did it in 2nd, it had to be with slipping the clutch through all roundabout, otherwise it would be with surging all the time and a bit difficult to control the bike. If I did it in 1st, it'd be well above 3000 rpm, no surging but the bike was so "nervous" as you'd expect any bike to be in 1st.
Then I installed my Arrow and noticed big improvement on roundabouts. I could go in 2nd and sometimes, just sometimes, it'd be neccessary to slip the clutch. Then, one day I got out to go to work and the sky was cloudy. As it almost never rains here in south, I went on. Then, out of nowhere, heavy rain. The only thing I could do is to switch to TC2 and be careful, as I have very small experience riding in rain (as I said, it almost never rains here). Entered first roundabout and as I was careful, it had to be quite slower then with dry road. I immediately noticed big difference. Even going slower on that roundabout there was no need to slip the clutch. Looked at rpm and it was on 1900. Bike was as smooth as silk.
I have never put it back to TC1 again. Been hapy ever since.
Post by: oddbod on January 27, 2015, 12:52:56
Fingers crossed this continues for you!!!!!!
Post by: wunwinglow on January 27, 2015, 14:12:54
I've just tried to open the left switch cluster, but I couldn't get it completely off as the stupid way the wires are routed, from the rocker switch over the front of the handlebars, it looks like you have to take the whole clutch lever assembly off as well, otherwise you cannot open the top and bottom of the cluster enough to get it off!! If they routed then BACKWARDS, the whole assembly would come off in a second. Bloddy value engineers saving 2 seconds on the production line probably...
Anyway, no corrosion at all as far as I could see, but by really waggling the Select switch, it eventually 'unclicked' and popped back up to its normal position. Turned on the ignition, and after a bit more waggling, the display unlocked and I was able to change the TC to 2, so will report back tomorrow if this improves things any more.
It felt like the switch moulding was actually jamming against something, so when I have a couple of hours to take the clutch lever all off, I'll investigate further. I'm wondering if the plastic they have used for the button has swelled a bit from the solvents in WD40 and/or ACF50? That's what it felt like, anyway.
But no corrosion. So that's good then.....
Tim
Noli non iligitimes carbor undem est! (Or something like that. I suddenly have the feeling a Centurion is breathing down my neck, gladius drawn.....)
Post by: Timmo on January 27, 2015, 19:04:21
Post by: greywolf on January 27, 2015, 21:29:10
Post by: wunwinglow on January 27, 2015, 23:59:17
Ride home on TC2 was fine, but I'm not sure there was any difference between the same journey on TC1. But no nonsense still. So allowing myself a little hope that things are now OK....
More soon!
Tim
Post by: wunwinglow on February 02, 2015, 13:39:04
I'll speak with Frasers, obviously it would be good to know what precisely was at fault, but bottom line, I'm a happy bunny now, I have the bike I knew was there all along. Just sorry it took so long to nail.
To anyone else with the same issues, Frasers swapped out the ENTIRE throttle assembly, with the same parts on their demonstrator. I'll find out if they have put my old parts back in their bike, or, put in a new set. I wouldn't want a demonstrator with a known duff carb set in it! I'll pass on any details I find out, if anything.
So: :grin: :grin: :grin: !
Tim
Post by: MartinW on February 02, 2015, 15:48:35
Let's hope the party is not too early :)
Post by: wunwinglow on February 02, 2015, 20:36:04
Tim
Post by: UK_Vstrom650 on February 02, 2015, 22:25:26
Glad it's sorted. Let's hope anyone else who's had this issue can get a similar fix :thumb:
Post by: oddbod on February 02, 2015, 22:37:06
Looks like I will popping dwn my dealers too then very soon
Post by: Brockett on February 03, 2015, 19:42:17
No for me. I take all this thread as a dreadful warning. If I pay a dealer for a bike I know that every £ I hand over will be perfect. There will not be some with only 87 pence. Therefore I expect the bike to be perfect and yes I know there are no "perfect bikes" but I mean it must work as well as any others that have been sold. I absolutely never will buy a Veek.
Post by: Roadrocket on February 03, 2015, 20:54:30
Post by: Oop North John on February 03, 2015, 21:01:40
Post by: Roadrocket on February 03, 2015, 21:11:31
Id fecking sell the foooker! Not that I have to justify what I ride to so called fellow Strommers!
Post by: Blade on February 03, 2015, 21:12:53
Post by: alan29 on February 03, 2015, 23:03:37
Would say that, wouldn't he.
Mind you offered me a spanking new one at £8299 without the unwanted luggage. Tempted.
Post by: Fat Rat on February 04, 2015, 00:18:24
Quote from: "Roadrocket"
Not that I have to justify what I ride to so called fellow Strommers!
Easy tiger.
Post by: Timmo on February 04, 2015, 13:16:38
Post by: Oop North John on February 04, 2015, 16:09:02
Post by: Simmo24 on February 04, 2015, 17:00:58
Post by: Blade on February 04, 2015, 18:35:10
Post by: TLPower on February 04, 2015, 19:35:20
It will be great to see you and your Veek on track at Cadwell.
(You should be OK, no 1st gear corners) :)
Post by: bigpie on February 04, 2015, 20:18:43
Post by: Mr Nick on February 04, 2015, 22:31:32
Quote from: "Blade"
I'm not including European makes in this equation because whatever issues they have comes under the heading of character.
I have the joy of owning such an animal - the 'character' that is: low speed snatchy throttle; horrendous mileage; lack of any real storage; 18" rear wheel; rectifier failure; sand in the coolant; price of spares; frequency of servicing; cost of servicing. I could go on a bit but I'm only depressing myself....
However,....
What I have is something that: is a hoot to ride; is well screwed together; uses metal bolts; has a stonking motor; anti-gravity front tyre; and has an image and presence that the Strom couldn't match - how many times do you get asked if you're still enjoying the insanity???
Do keyboard warriors slag them off on interweb forums? Yes. Do I care? Not a jot. Live with what you have & accept that it might not be everyone's choice.
Post by: oddbod on February 14, 2015, 16:18:12
Paid a visit to the Suzuki stall and it was interesting to see a new Veek on display "sports edition". This bike comes with a yoshi pipe.
Bearing in mind I have just put an arrow pipe on mine and noticed a significant difference, have Suzuki identified the same solution to this intermittent issue? Just a thought!
Post by: ziggy on February 14, 2015, 18:55:52
Quote from: "Roadrocket"
No problems with mine still to date, and judging by Veek owners around the world they too appear to be problem free..it appears to be a very isolated problem. But before I get shot down there are clearly some problems. But overall it seems to be the minority not the majority
Roadrocket pleased you are enjoying your Veek too. I must say that's a brilliant video over Applecross brings back great memories. Thank you.
:)
Post by: Roadrocket on February 15, 2015, 10:47:24
Quote from: "ziggy"
Roadrocket pleased you are enjoying your Veek too. I must say that's a brilliant video over Applecross brings back great memories. Thank you.Thanks for the feedback Ziggy :) We were incredibly lucky with the weather that trip. I'm planning on returning in Spring over to Arran and possibly Applecross again :) Beautiful place. Although this time I'll have a 100 horses on the other side of the throttle ;) :auto-dirtbike:
:)
Post by: oddbod on February 15, 2015, 16:58:34
Just done a lovely 50 mile run. Mixture of fast roads and urban roads with filtering. Whole ride was lovely and smooth without a fart/splutter or potential cut out during the whole ride. (Givi screen also makes a huge improvement with buffeting).
Will do the same again next week and if no signs of the old issue then I will start to be silently optimistic and chuffed.
Although to be honest, overall, I am already silently chuffed.
Feeling positive!!!!
Post by: Laava on February 16, 2015, 07:55:10
As it was a map sensor wire it only had any affect at full operating temp etc etc.
I recommend you have a look at these wires as I will bet I am not the only person this will happen to.
Post by: bosnjo on February 16, 2015, 08:37:22
(https://ktcables.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/spiral-wrapping.jpg)
Also, I want to check the connector behind the radiator and see what I can do to protect it against water.
Post by: oddbod on February 16, 2015, 13:22:14
Yep I see your post and plan to lift the tank next weekend to take a look and put some preventative measures in place. My cutting out issue has been from day 2 of picking the bike up so doubtful its chaffed wires but you never know. Will also be taking a look at the connector block behind/above the radiator too.
As I said, only two test runs so far (I don't get to use the bike until wknds) but so so so much smoother and responsive with the new exhaust, combined with the previously adjusted TPS to 28.9 and remap.
Silently chuffed, but mindful it may not be permanent!
Post by: wunwinglow on February 16, 2015, 13:47:48
Thanks all for contributing to this thread!
Tim
Post by: frez on February 16, 2015, 13:52:11
Post by: bosnjo on February 16, 2015, 14:30:17
https://www.motorraiz.com/
Post by: Oop North John on February 16, 2015, 14:59:32
Post by: oddbod on February 16, 2015, 15:59:25
Lovely jubbely. Try it wunwinglow, I love it!!!!
Post by: wunwinglow on February 17, 2015, 01:07:53
Tim (practising for October....)
Post by: oddbod on February 17, 2015, 09:00:43
Hope you enjoy.
You off to Spain again then? I'm trying to get to the Alps again this summer. 2 weeks through Germany, Austria, Leichtenstein, Switz. Will hurtle through France at beginning and end. Hopefully no sudden health issues will arise this time lol.
How the bike running though?
Post by: wunwinglow on February 19, 2015, 12:47:56
http://bam-members.org.uk/bamadmin/2015-16-Issue46.pdf (http://bam-members.org.uk/bamadmin/2015-16-Issue46.pdf)
Tim
Post by: oddbod on February 19, 2015, 15:43:10
Post by: bosnjo on February 19, 2015, 19:45:19
Quote from: "Laava"
I recommend you have a look at these wires as I will bet I am not the only person this will happen to.
Thanks to warning Laava posted here, I went through full check of those wires and found heavy rubbing signs. Solved it now and making separate thread about the problem.
Thanks Laava !!
Post by: Simmo24 on March 01, 2015, 17:54:13
Just like described on the Stormtrooper forum "chudder chudder clack clack" , what do they do on that 600 mile service ? I noticed it almost immediately after picking the bike up. Feels like it's a bit rough accelerating from low revs too. It was perfect before the service. MPG has suffered too, it was aroung 49-50 mpg now its already down to 42mpg.
Post by: Simmo24 on March 20, 2015, 11:27:47
Mind you I had it in for the technicians to check it out, but they couldn't find anything wrong. (Surprise !),
they did however re-seat all those exposed connectors above the radiator and waterproof them at my request, so whether this did anything I'm not sure. It's running fine so far though. :) :) :auto-dirtbike:
Post by: pdc3161 on April 11, 2015, 19:55:35
Post by: bosnjo on April 11, 2015, 20:15:13
Keep us posted on your new visit to a dealer.
Post by: Tanz on July 26, 2016, 13:13:05
Post by: bosnjo on July 26, 2016, 13:32:52