Suzuki V-Strom (VStrom) Owners Club DL250, DL650, DL1000 & DL1050
V-Strom specific discussion => V-Strom specific discussion => Top Technical V-Strom Posts => Topic started by: MartinW on June 03, 2013, 16:53:19
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This post has been chosen by the Moderator Team as being the best Technical Post of 2013. Our thanks to mjc506 for recording his rebuild last Summer.
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This post has been cut down to just the main technical inputs. The link below will take you to the full story in the original post.
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Summary: A detailed description of a full engine strip down and rebuild.
The original post was made by mjc506 (http://www.v-strom.co.uk/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=3305) and can be found here (http://www.v-strom.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=18427.0).
So... after a great week oop norf, the bike behaved perfectly until ~100miles from home on the way back.
M1 southbound, and I flash a truck across into my lane to let someone join off the sliproad. I shift into 4th to accelerate away again, and then discover I can't shift into 5th! Can't get into 3rd either, so I stop at the next services to see if I can free it up. (sidenote: manoeuvring an overloaded strom through a carpark is difficult in 4th)
The lever moves a little up and down, but stops dead just before it should click up and down the gearbox. The clutch is fine, actuates nicely, and locks/opens fine (and feels 'right'). Rotating the back wheel back and forth while trying to shift makes no difference, and I can't feel anything moving internally while I do.
So I give up, and decide to get back home in 4th. I make it out of the services and onto the motorway fine, but as I take my exit, I have to get round a roundabout, then go up a steep hill. Riding the clutch this hard to get going overheats it, and I now have no real power. The RAC rescue me this time <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
So I've cooked the clutch, and something's up with the gearbox. I've not found any reports of gearbox problems for the DL650 or the sv650 that match my symptoms (although there's an sv report that's close) but I'm hoping I can see/fix the problem just by taking the clutch and gen covers off!
Current plan is to open it up, check/service/fix the clutch, and see what I can see around the gearbox before I do any more. Where's best to get a 'pack' to service the clutch? And I can't find which gaskets I need, but found mention of people using a liquid gasket... is this as good?
Ta <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
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That does not sound good. Are you sure your gear lever linkages haven't seized? This can sometimes make gear selection difficult. I was checking mine today and it appears as if Suzuki don't grease them at all as mine were shiny new and bone dry..
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+1 for starting with the gear selection linkages. It's an easy job that doesn't need opening anything up. I had a similar issues, but I got stuck in 3rd gear (IIRC) and had to shift very hard to get into any other gear. I also have trouble shifting if my oil level gets low, but it's not the same thing as what you're describing.
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Yup, gear linkages are (unfortunately) fine. I needed to pull the clutch side anyway to check how many plates I cooked, and it looks like I can play with most of the mechanism without going much further (according to the manual)
Pics to follow :)
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Is the clutch cable cage rotating? I've had grit enter mine and seize it solid meaning I am stuck in a single gear. Same goes for grit in the cable or a split cable jamming the cable run.
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Yeah, I really don't want to drop the engine if I can help it!
The clutch is working fine I'm afraid (apart from the cooked plates).
Pics as promised:
Burnt clutch plate (bad pic, sorry)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5494/11259195905_d66e7c5ee5.jpg)
Non-burnt plate(s)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7429/11259278893_cbc2214b1d.jpg)
Clutch basket (which I now need to remove)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5512/11259236224_f0c70eafb4.jpg)
What I can see of the mechanism
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3797/11259235914_117e0e3623.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3815/11259278433_bdf87a0804.jpg)
So tonight's job is to buy a 27mm socket, remove the clutch basket and have a closer look. As it's stuck in gear, I can just lock the back wheel and not worry about holding the generator rotor with the 'special tool' :) Hmm, need to find my circlip pliers as well, and get some decent cleaner...
oh, and the front sprocket is nearly gone too, so a new C&S kit is on the cards :)
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No problem! The bike has undoubtedly seen a little abuse under me (and my pillion, and luggage) and I have no real idea what the previous owner done to it, so I don't mind pulling it apart - it gives me chance to check things, and photos are always helpful. :)
With any luck, I'll get the clutch completely out of the way tonight and at least be able to see the problem. I've still got to order clutch parts and gaskets, but will hopefully get a single complete order together!
More photos, and a diagnosis to follow :)
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Fuckityarsebugger ###
Clutch basket removed
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2849/11535421345_c074f9805f.jpg)
This is what I was expecting to be broken. Note the long bolt in the middle. On Gixxers and some SV's, this has backed out, letting the star cam move in relation to the shift barrel. Not in this case, although there is some wear on it.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5520/11535554443_e27515f27b.jpg)
All the selector mechanism gone
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3694/11535554393_76fb625e16.jpg)
But the problem still remains. The barrel will move a little, but not enough to change gear. Something's nadgered inside :bawl:
So I've got to drop the engine and split the cases. But to split the cases I think I need to remove the heads/pistons/magic elves/etc... not looking forward to that.
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Yeah, I've been doing the research, thanks for looking though :)
I'm pretty certain the problem is either something to do with either part 3 below (shift fork 3-4 gear), assy 7 (or it's bearings maybe? unlikely - the rotational limit is hard and consistent) or the actual gears/dogs in the gearbox somehow stuck together. As I understand it, the gear selector barrel should spin in either direction with little resistance (with the rear wheel turning) between gear 1 and 6.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5515/11535471274_6c259ddb80.jpg)
One thing I did notice...parts 4 and 5 slide sideways in the crankcase easily (I can see/touch them through holes in the crankcase). Maybe that's required to let the forks move back and forth easily, but there also appears to be a little radial play too (not that I can tell particularly well), Steel tube rattling around in an cast aluminium case sounds bad news to me? Perhaps there's a steel bushing inside I can't see yet. :shrug: That they (parts 4 and 5) move back and forth easily suggests to me that the shifting forks have not seized on these runners.
This thread (http://www.vstrom.info/Smf/index.php/topic,6675.msg78872.html) seems to suggest that I may not need to replace much, but...
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Assy 7 was the bit I was referring to. It's worth making sure that moves freely before dismantling other stuff. It's easy to clean if the ball bearings are stuck. Less easy to put back together though....
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Yes, assy 7 does not move freely, but I can't see any way of accessing it without splitting the cases? The ball bearing I can see looks fine, the needle bearing internally I can't see, and could be the cause of failure, but it doesn't 'feel' right.
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OK, stripped the wee last night, while I'm waiting for certain tools.
Start with 1 (one) wee, in a completely clean and tidy work area :shy:
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5539/11583748856_e0176d6255.jpg)
Yeah, you'll see that I've already removed the clutch cover.
Remove plastics...
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/11583160793_e88ac4f089.jpg)
..radiator... (check out the paint flapping around inside the inlet! Where's the rest of it gone?...)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5545/11582957955_e624777dd5.jpg)
..and tank
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5511/11583748406_4821a1523f.jpg)
You'll also need to remove the pannier racks (if fitted) to access the exhaust mounting bolts:
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3828/11583160023_b028698fd9.jpg)
Next is the exhaust. I was surprised - not all the bolts were welded on! The front cylinder allen bolts came out fairly happily, and the lump of rust at the bottom of the front header grew 6 sides and also came out without too many problems. The top/rear exhaust hanger bolt is a pain (both of those are bolts/nuts) as it has no access to the nut behind it, and the bottom nut/bolt (captive nut?) next to the footpeg might need drilling, but much better than I expected!
More to follow...
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Waiting for a sodding tool :angry-tappingfoot: which should have turned up today but it hasn't :GRR:
That's just to remove the generator rotor, at which point I can split the cases and start putting it back together.
However... I have found some metal in there... two pieces - one I can see but can't get to or shake out, and that's a part of either a shift fork or one of the gear dogs. The other is a small bit of crankcase, which makes a pocket for the front camchain tensioner to sit in :bawl: I don't know if the two are related, and if so which caused which, but they've both Got to be fixed!
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Aye, pics have been taken, but I missed a few steps, so I'll take a few more as I'm rebuilding and get a decent report together :)
If anyone's interested, I've got a public G+ album here. (https://plus.google.com/photos/103351805018662674641/albums/5885557562023183281?authkey=CI2RjtWi-__iFA)
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So today, I split the cases :lala: ...and my thumb and finger :limp: (those crankcases are sharp!)
But to carry on where I left off (it seems ages ago)
Removing the exhaust: I actually didn't take many pictures of this. It went surprisingly well! All the bolts apart from two were removed without issue - the ones that caused problems were the rearmost hanger bolt and it's nut (with no access), and the bolt down by the rh footrest - this has a square captive nut, but it's locktited, and its cage is made out of chocolate. In the end, both of these were sawn off, to be replaced with nice SS bolts/nuts when rebuilding.
The get the exhaust off, I did have to bend/remove the bash plate rear mount, but after that, a few blows with a rubber mallet/boot had it free and off the bike!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7385/11584044136_8b2ef5cf51.jpg)
Now, remove the airbox:
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2862/11583456463_2f5ba3035e.jpg)
and the throttle bodies (and all the tubes/wires connected to the engine - follow the service manual here, or you'll miss something):
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3754/11583455973_32c5732c3c.jpg)
Another part of the process I didn't photograph :( Remove all the engine mounting bolts, and become perplexed as to why it hasn't fallen out onto your foot. :shrug: Then notice the two compression bolts. These have locknuts (same tool as the swingarm bolt locknut), and then you'll be presented with something smooth and round that you have to unscrew! These bolts do actually have 6 tiny flats on them, but I didn't have anything the right size to undo them. Solution: remove the LH engine hanger (again, this came off OK, no seized bolts!) and keep lifting/lowering the engine until it comes free of the rear compression bolt. This will be to be loosened for re-assembly. The complete engine weighs ~55kg... use a jack if you have one!
You now have a complete engine. Remove all the hoses etc from it, and you'll end up with this:
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2841/11583455523_4741529775.jpg)
My PAIR valves has a slight carbon deposit... they will need replacing
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3813/11584043316_a686352f32.jpg)
Remove the head cover (from here, all the bolts are decent steel, and come out happily)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7380/11583255955_ffb3265d6a.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7411/11583255635_7e092601f1.jpg)
set the front piston to TDC (If you've already removed the generator cover like I had, you can still align the timing marks with a mark on the LH crankcase). Not essential, but makes removing the camshafts less 'springy'...
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7449/11583582384_5c3f4eea83.jpg)
Remove the camchain guide. Then remove the camshaft journals. On removing the bolts, pressurised air/water came spraying out from under the bolts! Only tiny amounts, but it has been reported before. Weird.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2822/11583454823_ac5e8ddbd8.jpg)
Pull the camshafts :)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3681/11583454853_88c415566e.jpg)
From here, it's all fairly obvious. Remove the heads:
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2884/11583255185_1e87ed75d5.jpg)
Careful to grab the gaskets too!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7298/11583254775_4eda304cbf.jpg)
and the cylinders! (both pistons are caked in carbon - I thought they'd be cleaner to be honest)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7369/11583454153_2950f36243.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3699/11583454343_220614be9c.jpg)
The pistons come off easily (apart from that the 'circlip' mentioned in the service manual isn't a normal circlip - more of a spring clip)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7320/11584041336_dbe87a8280.jpg)
Then do it alllll again to the rear piston.
Crankshaft :)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3730/11583253545_576a432cb0.jpg)
Piston:
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/11583253375_1bd8bdaa84.jpg)
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2876/11584040696_fbdfdd7ac4.jpg)
You now have this:
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3728/11583579984_321b2f41de.jpg)
Continue following the service manual. Remove the oil pump (it looks like this:)
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2877/11583579584_dba79994a8.jpg)
and remove all the gears you can. The next step is where I got stuck for several days - removing the generator rotor. Once the tool (essentially a M20x1.5 threaded bolt. There are two other places on the bike that use this thread - the output sprocket shaft, which you can't use until the cases are split; and the oil fill plug. Don't be a muppet like me and try the oil fill plug. It's plastic, and will be ruined...)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5524/11583452363_ff9694005f.jpg)
The difficulty is tightening the puller, while holding the crankshaft dead still, and with your third arm, holding the engine down. If you don't hold the crankshaft still, the camchain(s) can get caught up and do this: :bawl: (at least, that's how I assumed this happened)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/11583452093_95f576f17e.jpg)
That pocket should hold the cam chain tensioner. In this case I think I'm going to try JB weld, as a new crankcase pair (not available separately) is £1800.... I can get an engine for less than that!
The reason for trying to remove the generator rotor is to get to these two bolts:
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5513/11584039696_b72c230c3e.jpg)
but you don't actually have to remove the rotor to get to them. I removed the starter motor (2x 8mm bolts, plus a few blows from 'das mallet') and wiggled the starter idler gear and its shaft out.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2831/11583451803_a793fc7274.jpg)
servicable? or not even worth it?
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3709/11583451683_10f3c08ab6.jpg)
Now you can get to (and remove) these bolts. Careful here - they're tight, and one they loosen, I caught my thumb and finger between my ratchet and the edge of the crankcase - it's really sharp, and cut quite deep.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2824/11583578754_9258e56e98.jpg)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5544/11583578364_2e5d49f5b9.jpg)
You can then remove all the other bolts (highlighted by the service manual)
Now for the fun part. I was expecting this to be a really difficult bit, but it was actually easy. The Laser crankcase separating tool is worth every penny :thumb:
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3719/11583251835_8ab93dce21.jpg)
Set up the separator like the image above, and slowly tighten the central bolt. You'll hear a clunk, and half the crankcase will have separated.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7318/11583450863_90b84deac4.jpg)
Now move the tool over to the clutch shaft and do the same (once the gasket between the crankcases is broken, the clutch shaft sticks in its bearing, so you will need to drive it all the way through with the crankcase separator)
Separated!!!!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7419/11583577974_d3993b167b.jpg)
Check the condition of the oil mesh:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7312/11583251245_fb602409b6.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3683/11583450053_d23093c68b.jpg)
It's worth giving the crankcases and all the bearings a good once over too.
Now. The gearbox.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3779/11583450063_965202944a.jpg)
Remove the shift forks and their shafts
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2816/11584037966_5e9f093203.jpg)
And pull out the shift barrel (it's heavier than it looks)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3672/11583449763_3c5b2a6478.jpg)
Check out the bits I found in the bottom of the crankcase...
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3685/11583251095_b1b1fd0e4d.jpg)
You can then tap out the sprocket shaft, and remove the gearbox from the engine (don't drop the washers)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7311/11583449653_79d0101afc.jpg)
Driving gear 4th:
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2838/11583449443_92dd698fdb.jpg)
Dissasembly is straight forward, though requires circlip pliers with small 'prongs'
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3747/11583250435_876be05e1b.jpg)
These pictures are of the failed part:
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5503/11584036956_24b6457890.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3782/11584036926_2d31899196.jpg)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5539/11584036896_6199db4c7d.jpg)
I need to get some better photographs, but in the flesh you can see the normal dull grey failure surface, but also a shiny area surrounding a hard lump. It looks like this was a material defect. The other dog just has the dull grey surface, I imagine it got hit pretty hard! Amazingly, it looks like there's no other damage! I'll take another look tomorrow in better light (and concentration) but it should be a reasonably short body count :)
The only thing I'm now concerned about is the broken cam chain tensioner pocket. I don't think there's a huge amount of force on it, and JB weld should hold, but if it does fail it could be fairly catastrophic. I'm not sure if I broke it by getting the camchain caught up (I was careful, but...) or if it did get hit by a fragment of gearbox, but either way it needs fixing, rather than replacing. I'll phone around to see if there are any alu welders than can do it first.
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The two bigger broken bits came from the driven(?) 4th gear dogs. These should slot in to an adjacent gear and provide drive, but one broke (and took another with it).
Here's some better photos:
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2807/11587419423_1ca1654400.jpg)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5507/11587217105_86c502560d.jpg)
Note the shiny smooth area on the left surrounding that hard nodule. That's where the failure started!
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3774/11587419253_210bc65532.jpg)
Further round the crack surface, you can see 'growth lines', indicating it wasn't a sudden failure. I count ~100 of these lines, so that's ~100 revolutions, or roughly a second @6000rpm... Also note the largish smooth (but dull) area on the far top-right. This was the final crack. You can also just about see the case hardening here.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7438/11587216765_5e4e5c57f9.jpg)
Here's the second failed dog site. Nothing too exciting here - it's a simple sudden brittle fracture caused by being clouted by the first failed dog!
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3821/11587216695_1b2c73e430.jpg)
All those years studying bits of broken metal have paid off :haha: It is a bit worrying that it was a material defect that caused this, as there may be more out there. I'm incredibly lucky that the dogs stayed stuck in the driven gear - if they had fallen out and become jammed in the gearbox, my pillion and I would be smeared down the M1 and some truck's undercarriage, and it's unlikely anyone would have known what had happened :shock:
All the other gears have no impact marks (or any other strange marks) on them, so I should be OK. I will be replacing the surrounding gears anyway, and if I can find someone with an x-ray machine I'll get the others checked too. (might be worth just replacing the whole gearbox)
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heh, I'm half considering sending them to Suzuki (I want to keep the actual gear as a souvenir if I can haha) but I'm sure they'd want the real thing to do any real analysis on it.
That said, they probably wouldn't care - one failure out of how-many-thousands isn't bad going :)
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Arsebiscuits. Just found out the bits I've ordered won't be here for at least 2 weeks. Some fairly vital parts are on back order :bawl:
I'm bike sick :violin: At least it gives me a little while to play with a few other tweaks :shrug:
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Finally some progress!
I used my new tool to press the old journal bearings out. I was expecting this to be a complete arse, but it wasn't too bad!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7429/11587419243_a602dab12c.jpg)
Next, fit the new journal bearings into the other part of the tool, and tighten up the screw a touch (not as tight as possible, just 'wrist tight')
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7324/11587538054_b5a4e3e8b2.jpg)
Heat up the casting (every little helps) and smother the surfaces with engine oil
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2825/11587216135_81f3f268bf.jpg)
I didn't take photos here, as I was terrified of it all going wrong! Place the ring containing the new bearings over the hole, aligning the split between the bearings with the marking on the casting. Now use the other part of the tool to press the bearings from the ring into the casting - this keeps everything straight and aligned.
Done!
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3810/11587417893_dbb9a7c4da.jpg)
After that, I started cleaning all the bits up. The crankcases are coming up nicely just with Muc-off.
I'm a bit worried about the carbon build up on the pistons and PAIR valves, although everything else (cylinders, heads, spark plugs) was clean and looking good :shrug:
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3729/11587417323_e19a76cbea.jpg)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/11587417223_fd19dfa63f.jpg)
PAIR valves will be replaced, pistons will be cleaned.
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Honestly, once you get past the 'omfg this is terrifying' stage (the worst bit for me was unplugging all the hoses and cables and dropping it out of the frame), it's just a case of taking off a few bolts, and pulling a part off. Yes, you can break things if you're a clutz (like me, I forgot to keep the camchain tight while removing the primary drive gear) but anything can be fixed, and if you're slow and methodical and triple check everything, it's not particularly difficult. :)
I'm nearly at the stage where I can start putting it all back together! The crankcase needs a final clean (I need a high pressure jet of cleaner I think), then I can start reassembly.
I put together the gearbox last night (no photos, it was fiddly, but straightforward), and then gave in to my desires and chucked it in the crankcase for a test fit (Got to make sure I put it back together correctly, right? :haha: ) and was mortified when it locked up and would spin or shift! Turns out the countershaft runs on a spring washer, which needs to be compressed for it to mesh properly, so I put the crankcase halves together, and it now spins and shifts nicely. I'll now have to split the cases again, but that wasn't difficult.
:lala:
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So it turns out that the best way to clean crankcases is with a dishwasher! Unfortunately, when the welder was fixing my breakage, the case took on a nice burnt golden orange look from the oil and crap being burnt on. So one case is silver and the other has a big gold patch.
I figure I should paint both cases to do the job properly (it'll annoy me otherwise). What would the forum do: try to match the silver (any pointers?), or go for a different colour completely? (Matt black maybe?)
Any opinions or advice?
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I figure black is worth a go :) The dishwasher brought both halves up lovely, but the gold-brown effect is still there. Baked into the paint by the look of it.
Seems like the best bet will be to assemble the engine, then paint it (masking off any non-paint parts). If I'm going to tart it up, I think I'll be replacing all the clutch/generator cover bolts anyway, so that's quite a few I don't have to worry about :) Otherwise, I'll have to be scrupulous when masking if the engine's all apart, and I won't be able to bake it properly anyway... I'll have to research paint a bit...
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Pretty much the end of the open heart surgery now - the crankcases are back together, with all rotating parts moving as they should :lala: Check out the colour difference between the two crankcase halves!
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3704/11588351286_55e390f994.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7349/11587560355_a5407b16cd.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3677/11587560215_aa63cfb2ef.jpg)
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I want to spray everything! EVERYTHING! :hyper: and I ordered the paint late last night :shy: we'll see how it looks, but I'm still open to persuasion from photos of a beautiful engine :haha:
Jacko, I'm afraid I'll have to disappoint, I don't think a camping table would carry a cylinder head, let alone a complete engine lol this is actually a generous donation from my work - a hydraulic raise/lowered trolly. It'll lift 500kg, so once I'm done with this, I'll weld a decent bed onto it and use it as a bike lift :)
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Some more progress.
Here's the lhs with covers off and most bits fitted:
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2817/11589563973_bba36d0134.jpg)
and here's the rhs. Note, the oil pump is fitted, as is the gear selector mechanism and camchain/sprocket.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2881/11589682494_cbf1d87602.jpg)
Now for the clutch.
Clutch basket as removed: (filthy)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7454/11589563273_91b0ab7e3a.jpg)
...and after a quick clean:
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3792/11590153666_e2827e6299.jpg)
on the engine:
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3768/11589357525_d372796de7.jpg)
'inner basket' ?
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3812/11590151966_b97f48ab74.jpg)
and bolted up. I have yet to bend the lock washer over here
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3684/11589357145_c023b8729d.jpg)
Marvel at the difference between new clutch plates (left) and old (right, burnt)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3723/11590151396_f95f3f76a0.jpg)
Soak these in oil, and slot into the basket
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2876/11589356445_ae1478e79b.jpg)
Done!
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2870/11589560633_e6de844354.jpg)
Descolada, I've a few more photos to take (removing the clutch cover etc) and then I'll put together a clutch service how-to.
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Good progress last night. :)
Removed the water pump from the clutch cover, and opened it up (I'd disturbed two of the orings while removing the clutch cover, and I had all the spares anyway, so thought I might as well). Be careful here! The two screws holding it together are tight, and JIS - use an impact tool to loosen these.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5526/11625063675_e7e124f02d.jpg)
Mucky eh? Looks like I had a tiny coolant leak through one of the o-rings too.
Don't do this bit if you don't have to! This seal was a b*stard to remove. It's an incredibly tight fit, there's nowhere to pry it out, and it's also glued in. I destroyed mine on the way out, even with a good application of heat!
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3670/11625299143_0633e7ab12.jpg)
Note: if you do need to change this part, the spare comes in two halves. One half fits in the hole, but it took me a little while to find where the other half went:
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2820/11625435254_a62139a392.jpg)
Clutch cover gasket on!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7403/11625434144_d2c429e816.jpg)
Clutch cover temporarily fitted - I have some new shiny bolts to fit after painting.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5541/11625433514_5ed96cb0b8.jpg)
and on the other side, here's the generator cover fitted
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7318/11625432664_8490768064.jpg)
Here's a cleaned piston, with the rings being removed
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5488/11625835816_83cea41f8a.jpg)
and here they both are fitted with new rings! This step really is quite simple. Just make sure you do one at a time - and refer to the other to make sure you get the rings right. The manual isn't particularly clear which goes where, and only one is marked with a 'T' on top. I was concerned that I'd got the wrong bits, but the old rings matched my new ones. Basically, from the bottom upwards, oil ring (consisting of side ring - spacer - side ring), then the second ring (marked with a 'T' on the top side), then the first right (groove on top). Please double check this on your engine first though!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7399/11625059445_3230189468.jpg)
So, who spotted my "deliberate" mistake? :shy:
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Clutch cover removed, and masked.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2840/11625294363_a55098da39.jpg)
and after a bit of paint
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3787/11625834826_44873211bc.jpg)
I didn't really take many photos of the next bits - all pretty simple, but I needed both hands, and needed to assemble quickly as the silicone gasket stuff was drying!
Cylinders on
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3738/11625430484_232ec77fa4.jpg)
Water pump and clutch cover fitted
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2873/11625057675_b10d348436.jpg)
Heads fitted!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7458/11625293523_41388e0063.jpg)
Camshafts/timing next. I will take plenty of photos of this bit, as it'll be more useful to someone I'd imagine :)
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Here's the starter idler gear.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5489/11625056695_2cb21b7e72.jpg)
This is removed either just before or just after the startermotor - I had to remove it as I couldn't get the generator off the crankshaft, and it was the only way of getting to one of the crankcase bolts.
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I've gone for a strange mixture - Hammerite Smooth black on the oil cooler, radiator (sides), starter motor, and a few other bits and pieces, and Techcote high temperature satin black for the bulk of the engine. Seems to bring up a nice smooth 'sheeny' finish and it's nice and easy to apply. 24hr cure, and a slow lowish temp final cure should make it rock hard!
...should :eusa-pray:
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Hammerite should be fine on the radiator - worst case temp should be ~100degC, well within normal paint capabilities. The engine does get a little hotter though, so... :)
Scant progress this weekend. Got the timing sorted (and turned it over a few times with the wrench - no grinding noises! :lala: ) but measuring the valve clearances showed all four exhaust valves over-tight. New shims ordered, should have then by tomorrow. I was about to go off in a rant about how the garage can't have checked them, but then realised that the last service they did included the valve check, and that was ~35k miles ago... I guess the clearances could have changed since then :)
Set up the timing mark to 'F' on the generator. Make sure to turn the crankshaft anti clockwise (facing it from the lhs of the engine). It is essential to keep both cam chains tight!
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5514/11625790545_8af847f94e.jpg)
Each camshaft is labelled, so if you failed to keep everything organised, it's not the end of the world. For example: Inlet Rear:
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2886/11626032063_1954ab20e7.jpg)
and Exhaust Rear:
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5545/11626173104_148c34b69c.jpg)
Follow the service manual religiously. This is the front cylinder timing marks:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7341/11626171984_ede6a4df2f.jpg)
Note, in this photo, you can't see the '3' mark. It is there, but faint, even in the flesh.
Cover the journals in engine oil!
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5478/11626171084_3b2f868305.jpg)
Journal's fitted in place:
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5513/11626170784_5e90acb627.jpg)
Tensioner installed:
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3693/11626573016_c25f947989.jpg)
And then do something similar at the back! (but make sure that you follow the manual re: timing marks and crankshaft position!)
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2813/11626169214_f576e1f0b5.jpg)
It turns!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7290/11625785755_5b34834015.jpg)
And here I am double checking tappet sizes...
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5517/11625785855_a9b234a397.jpg)
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The engine's now spending tonight in the front room :haha:
note for next time - it's silly heavy. Don't try and carry it across a tiled kitchen in boots covered in oil, soap and water... :limp:
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It's all in one piece!!! :lala:
Fitting the new tappet shims:
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2840/11626244903_5d5b4dab0b.jpg)
and now the valve clearances are all good :)
and a crappy photo (taking a picture of a shiny black thing in low light with a mobile phone is never going to work great...) of the first few coats of satin black!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7330/11626387064_643f386aab.jpg)
I'll get a daylight picture shortly :)
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a bit better:
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3736/11626244233_f439a9c1d8.jpg)
Definitely another few coats needed, after a rub down :) but I quite like the finish. Whether or not it looks right on the bike is another matter of course :haha:
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First picture was at night, with flash. The second was in daytime, but under a canopy, still with flash. I think google's "enhanced" the pictures too.
The real finish is a nice satin black. I'm not home tonight, but tomorrow I'll get it out properly and get some decent photos :)
EDIT: Been thinking about the first start... what's the best way of making sure that the engine oil's everywhere it should be? The service manual doesn't mention it.
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I would certainly prime your oil filter before you crank her over.
I know the plugs will no doubt be in but if not you could put her in gear and turn the engine over by the back wheel once the oil is in.
Good luck.
:)
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Plenty of assembly lubricant used, but I'm still twitchy about relying on it :)
Yup, good point, I'll fill the oil filter up to start with. I was considering laying the engine over on it's lhs, opening the clutch cover (again), overfilling with oil, and turning the oil pump by hand until it 'felt' right... I think there's a few ways of checking oil has got to various places too. Once I'm happy, I can close it up, drain the excess oil, close my eyes and press the button :haha:
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I'm sure it will, but the half-second or so after every oil change while the pump get oil to everywhere it should is long enough! I keep hearing '90 seconds' and 'a few minutes' banded about :shock:
I do have the advantage that it's not strapped to a bike yet, so I can (and could) fill the crankcase completely with oil to make sure :haha:
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If you're concerned then take the plugs out and turn it over on the starter for a bit.
Once running the oil light should go out within a few seconds, the oil that you used when assembling should last for those few seconds until the pump takes over. Only start worrying if the oil light stays on.
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Overfilling won't help any. Just use the amount specified on a rebuild. It's the parts that are force lubricated by the oil pump and oil galleries that can suffer until oil pressure is built up. Those parts are taken care of by the assembly lube applied during the rebuild.
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I may not need to overfill - my thinking was just to make sure that the suction side of the pump was submerged, then turn the pump to get some oil where it's needed. Once the pump's primed, I believe that there's more than enough oil in there (even at min level) to keep it so.
There's quite a few expensive bits fed by the oil pump... crankshaft, camshafts/tappets (and whatever I've forgotten!)
I'm just paranoid :)
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If assembly lube was used then I wouldn't worry about it myself. Start it up and just watch that the oil light goes out sharpish.
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Didn't feel like much progress tonight, just another few coats on the engine. Also looked at both radiators... new ones required I think :bawl: but that can wait until I find a bargain. :)
Still not happy with this photo. but it's better than the others.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3824/11627447376_363e888bdb.jpg)
One more can tomorrow (hmm, if I get up really early I can do a few coats before work...) then fit it to the bike, book an MOT, cross fingers... :auto-dirtbike:
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SV650 oil cooler is the same as the strom, mine is an SV650 one after a large stone put pay to it a while back.
Part number stamped on it is even the same.
cost me about £45 off ebay, fair condition, and had an after market stainless cover.
that reminds me, needs a little coat of paint.
engine is looking good there mate!
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Good shout on the oil cooler Mr Diver, thanks :) I'll keep an eye out. I think half the problem is that the stock guard thingy was long gone when I bought it! The bash plate did help, but...
The engine looks great in the flesh (in my opinion at least) :)
Thanks Gassoon :) Got to be honest, "next time" (I hope not), I'd hire some garage space!
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Ideally, yeah, I would, but I don't want to get it running then have to switch it off - it'll need a decent run to start bedding everything in. And the only way I can (legally) give it a run at the moment is on the way to a booked MoT :( I hate stupid laws like that.
The place I'm hoping to use is good though, so I'm hoping they don't mind too much if they get a call tomorrow telling them that it's not running and I'll be late haha
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Engine in, exhaust on, no photos though, sorry!
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Well, the good news is that it didn't explode into a shower of burning shrapnel :)
Had a few set-backs yesterday, so I gave up and went to see my girlfriend. Hence no news :haha:
Got up early, and set about putting it all back together. Everything going smoothly, fitted the throttlebodies and airbox with new filter etc. Filled the new oil filter with oil (halfrauds finest dinosaur goop), spun it on, then filled the engine up. I could feel my knees getting wet, at which point I remembered to put the oil drain plugs back in :GRR: The second attempt saw the engine holding oil though, which was a good start :)
Somehow managed to route all the cables and hoses, and get everything plugged in. Filled the radiator up with coolant (should've used distilled water to start with, ah well) and no leaks to report.
Got all the plastics on, and forgot to take a photo (I'm now a touch nervous). Get the keys, double check everything, switch the ignition on, and....
nothing.
Next, I fitted the battery and tried again :shy: Weird. Headlights off, sidelights on, and all the indicators on (dimly). Pressing the hazards made the indicators, sidelights and abs light flash. :shrug:
So off come the plastics. I try other buttons on the handlebars to see what happens. Flashers don't work, hazards and indicators do that weird flashing thing, BEEEP OK, the horn works, and then suddenly everything whirs to life! Apart from the fuel pump, as the tank's on the ground next to the bike. Still, life!
Put everything back on the bike, switch it on again, whir buzz.... CHEC arse. It's 11am, and the MoT is booked for 12, so I call the garage and cancel it. Sidestand switch is OK, it's in neutral (and the N light's on), killswitch is off... Ah, but the rhs handlebar switches are unplugged!
next attempt: Whirrrr bzzz... right, everything looks good. I hold my breath, pull the clutch, squeeze the front brake (just in case), cover the killswitch, and press the starter. It turns over! Then stops. Try again - CLUNK. Arse. Try again, CLUNK. CLUNK.
Can't have seized already can it?! Switch off, open up the generator access port thingy, and I can turn the engine over by hand (with a ratchet). So the engine's fine. Everything between the starter switch and the solenoid is fine, 'cos I can hear it clunk. Power is getting to the solenoid too... so everything should be fine.
Right, double check everything. Most likely dead thing is the solenoid. To test that, simply short out the two large terminals! So I put my welding gloves on and pick up a 1/2" spanner. Lots of sparks, but the bike turns over! So I pull the solenoid out and bench test it. It's fine, no problems :angry-tappingfoot: Put it back in, turn the ignition on, pull the clutch, front brake, and press the button.
It turns over! and makes me jump, so I let go :haha: Right, again! It starts! :lala:
and dies :bawl: OK, it didn't stop with any horrible noises, it just sort of slowed and stalled. That's alright - lots of friction, not much oil yet, and it hasn't been run for two and a half months(!). I need to hold it at ~2500rpm anyway to get the oil pump working, so... try again, with more throttle!
It runs! :lala: noisy, as there's no oil, but my overfill/turn by hand/drain technique a few nights ago may have helped as it as quietens off within a few seconds :lala:
Still doesn't sound too good though. Almost as if it's running on one cylinder, but not quite. No FI errors showing (it's in dealer mode), but it won't idle, and WOT feels veerrryy sluggish. Killswitch, stops. Front cylinder is warm/hot to touch, but the rear cylinder is only warm. (but not cold)
So... it runs, with no 'mechanical interface' noises, so that's good. (Actually, that's f*cking great :) ) But it's running poorly, and sounds more like a steam engine than a v-strom. That'll be valve related then. Clearances, timing, or just leaking?
I'm fairly certain it's not the clearances, as I re-done the camshafts/timing a few times getting the clearances right with new shims. And they were in spec as I put the covers on.
Timing I done a few times, and I'm pretty sure I got it right. However... it is certainly a possibility. If its out, its not far out (see, 'no mechanical interface noises' above :) )
Leaking valves... could be. When I turn the engine over by hand with that ratchet, its not particularly difficult, and I could convince myself that I hear air hissing out. Thing is, the heads were taken care of - as soon as they came off, they were wrapped in clingfilm with some silica gel, and put away in a box inside. I didn't try cleaning them (it was running fine before the gear fell apart), as I was trying not to disturb anything. Admittedly, I also didn't check them much.
So. Bad news - it's not a living breathing motorcycle quite yet. It still needs an MoT, and I'll need to open the engine up again.
Good news - it runs, and isn't eating itself from the inside yet. All the electrics are (now) OK. The work I'll need to do on the engine shouldn't require removing it from the frame, so that's a bit easier.
I completely failed at getting photographs I'm afraid (the black engine looks smart on the bike. I did scratch it a bit getting it into the frame, but I kept some paint spare for touch ups :) ) but here's some I took before.
Engine on the bench:
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5485/11627447146_2dcc6c2af1.jpg)
Radiator, oil cooler, and thermostat painted hammerite gloss black. (Gloss was a mistake - satin or matt would look better)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5475/11626908423_4a1fa985c9.jpg)
The engine paint I used (recommended - it goes on nicely with good coverage, cures in 24hrs, and becomes solvent and impact resistant after a 'low' temperature bake. A hair dries seems to work. Engine oil doesn't touch it, even pre-baked. Petrol makes it soft pre-bake, but doesn't do much after)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3802/11627049664_94d3b1faa1.jpg)
Painting the bottom of the engine, and the sprocket cover
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3808/11626907393_8caf0410ee.jpg)
and on the bench, ready to fit!
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5517/11626906993_87575b535f.jpg)
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Back to the [s:2elxbneu]workshop[/s:2elxbneu] garden today :)
The electrical problems may have been due to a weird flaky earth connection up by the dash. Likely to have been that solenoid stuck too though, but to be fair, it had sat in the garden in bits for a while...
Tank, airbox, plastics, throttlebodies, etc off, valve covers open
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2873/11627323033_9581c41bdf.jpg)
At this point, I dropped a bolt down the back of the engine, and in the process of fishing it out, I saw the rear exhaust bolt (the clamp between the rear cylinder and main exhaust) was loose. That'll be the hissing I could hear then :) (thank you bolt) I'd forgotten to tighten it during installation.
Took the front header off too.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7376/11627322523_bc937007b4.jpg)
and here we have our problem... I'd fitted the rear cams 180deg out of sync! I must have turned the engine over once too many when swapping from the front to rear cylinder :shy: Still, at least it was 180deg out, rather than 90deg out...
If the engine was on the bench, fixing this would be a 5 minute job. On the bike however, the rear cam chain tensioner is an arse to get to. The easier solution would be to change the front cylinder timings, but I didn't think of that. Here's my solution:
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5530/11627322093_804f1c6ac6.jpg)
This monstrosity actually worked!
(side question - how does the ECM know when to spark/inject fuel? It has a crankshaft position sensor, but for any particular crank position, the cams could be in either of two positions, for example, compression or exhaust, intake or power. How does the ECM know which is which? )
Next, I put it all back together :) No video, sorry. But it starts easy, and runs really well :) :lala: especially considering everything's tight in there!
And here's two dodgy photos showing this fantastic machine back to its normal self (and a sexy engine :haha: )
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3795/11627862426_86954d60e4.jpg)
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2857/11627082045_9d39a55806.jpg)
WoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :auto-dirtbike:
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Thanks all :) Needless to say, the plan for tomorrow is fit those stickers :) , get the mot done, then run it all in (with a few oil changes thrown in for good measure) haha
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well mate, that's an ambitious job done very well and methodically.
when you started this post I thought it was going to be another, look my bike wasn't 100% and I broke it more, anyone want to buy the bits, type of thing.
But you have made it an interesting, informative and inspiring thread to read. I'm sure now some will be saying "hell if he can do that in his garden with no shed/garage to work in then I can damn well change the oil and filter next week!"
Well done mate and I'm glad she's all better.
PS Don't fancy doing my valve clearance anytime soon... I really can't be arsed, it was such a faff I haven't done it since 14.5k lol Joking
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Well, I do have some spares to sell :haha:
I was considering writing it up into a neat little document, but I'm sort of tempted just to leave this thread as it is... I'd hope that no-one else has to go through all of that, and the various comments along the way are more helpful to a googler than would be imagined :)
What I will do is work out what special tools I had/used/needed and set up a 'lending library' of sorts. I'm thinking the owner keeps the tool, and anyone who needs it pays postage both ways plus a refundable deposit to discourage losses...
I'd also be happy to assist how I can if any strommer is facing disassembling their engine. Give me a PM, I'll see what I can do!
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The crucial bit is the first 20 miles. Mineral oil only, up and down through the rev range using engine braking and then drop the oil. No pootling around or screaming the ears off it, but don't take it too easy either. You get the idea anyway :)
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Yeah, they're well aware of the bike's history :) Good bike garage in Aylesbury: DWR Motorcycles
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(side question - how does the ECM know when to spark/inject fuel? It has a crankshaft position sensor, but for any particular crank position, the cams could be in either of two positions, for example, compression or exhaust, intake or power. How does the ECM know which is which? )
I remember asking this question on the Tiger forum and the answer I was given was that the ECU actually saw the crank speeding up and slowing down as it reached compression and was able to deduce which cylinder was reaching compression from this. This was cited as the reason why most triples actually turn over a couple of times before firing.
I have to say it didn't convince me then either.......
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I suspect the ECM doesn't "know" but supplies a wasted spark on the exhaust stroke. A wasted spark was used on all the old Honda fours and many other engines.
This isn't about using one coil to fire more than one cylinder, but rather an electronic control module using the crankshaft position sensor along with other sensors to time a spark. If there is no sensor to differentiate between compression and exhaust stroke, the ECM may fire the plug at both cycles.
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Makes sense, halves the life of the plugs though. :D
Maybe that's why the plug replacement schedule is so ridiculously short. Anyway, the effect on the plug of igniting the mixture is much greater than throwing a spark in an exhaust stroke. I wouldn't put the additional wear at anything approaching half.
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Yeah, wasted spark is pretty common. I'd more interested in the injection side of things :)
Today, I passed an MoT :)
...and emptied a fuel tank through the main rear drain port :)
I don't know if it's faded memory, but the Wee feels smooth, predictable, and more powerful than before? It's loosened up nicely, sounds fantastic, and I've still got a silly grin on my face :grin:
By the end of the week I should be back onto synthetic oil, and running in will be pretty much complete :lala:
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The way I understand it: for fuel injection it's more a case of how long the injectors stay open rather then when exactly they open. As long as there is enough fuel to suck in when the intake valves open it's all fine :) At idle the injectors only open for milliseconds, at full revs they can be open 80%+ of the time. Engines with both crank and cam sensors can be more accurate with the "when", if needed.
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The way I understand it: for fuel injection it's more a case of how long the injectors stay open rather then when exactly they open.
Right. The fuel pressure to the injectors is constant. At 43psi, a bypass valve in the pump starts to open and delivers excess fuel back into the tank. Since the pressure is constant, the amount of fuel fed to the combustion chambers is determined by how long the ECM holds the injectors open. The ECM takes information from the sensors to determine how long to hold the injectors open.
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Good point. I'm a retard :) I rebuilt the thing and I was still imagining injectors in the combustion chamber :doh: I guess there's a pretty big volume of air between the injectors and valve seats to hold fuel vapour/air in, especially at those sorts of speeds/frequencies.
I need help again.... where do I stick this fantastic gel domed sticker that Mr Rat sent me? My first though was on the top of the tank, but I'm kind of holding out for a v-strom.co.uk tank protector :shy:
Video as requested :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgk6HKzpJ6k
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Certainly not in the traditional sense (all cylinders spark at the same time) but perhaps in the sense that each cylinder sparks on every crank revolution.
don't know, just educated guesses really.
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Another possibility is the ECM uses a camshaft position sensor to distinguish the compression stroke from the exhaust stroke. I haven't seen anything in the manual that addresses the specifics on the matter.
Edit: As they say in New York, fagedaboutit. Only the Vee has a camshaft position sensor.
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GW, there's a camshaft position sensor on the Wee?
I guess it doesn't matter anyway - the lump runs :)
Tonight's job is another oil change, and I'll go over all the fasteners to find any that I forgot to tighten...
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GW, there's a camshaft position sensor on the Wee?
It was listed in the index. A further check finds no other reference. It's only in the Vee and Suzuki must have used the Vee manual as a boilerplate. :angry-tappingfoot:
I'll go back and edit previous stuff.
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No problem! I just panicked and thought I'd forgotten to install a component! :)
Here's the real video :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyo2bYs1OJY
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Updates:
Run through a few tanks. Fuel consumption seems back to normal/better. I'm convinced the engine is running better than I've experienced before. Even my pillion commented how smooth it was. I'm guessing a bit of love to the clutch, coupled with de-coking everything has helped a lot. I haven't managed as many miles as I expected (cursed weather), so I'm still on dino goop. I'll go synthetic @~1000miles. The oil changes have been easy. Very little crap in the oil coming out, although the first filter had a reasonable amount of aluminium in it. Nothing since. The last oil change was possibly a waste of time, as it came out the same colour it went in :)
No leaks/vibrations/bits falling off either :haha:
Problems:
Something isn't quite right with the electrics. Yesterday evening, after a bit of rain during the afternoon, I switch the bike on, thumb the starter and nothing happens. Switch off and switch back on again, and it starts fine. :shrug: This morning, after a night of rain, switch on, fuel pump and STVA make the right noises, but no starty :( I get the solenoid click, but no movement. C12 on the dash - Crankshaft position sensor. I imagine I would have had the same come up last night, but it took a good few seconds for it to appear.
I can't get to the CKPs plugs at the moment, so couldn't check that, but the service manual seems to indicate that the engine should still crank with that sensor failed (FI Troubleshooting, C12 CKPS) This wasn't cranking even. The solenoid was clicking when pressing the starter button, but the starter wasn't running. (Sound familiar?) I'm wondering if the C12 is correct?
The solenoid clicked was fresh in my mind from the weekend, so I tried the spanner trick (shorting the solenoid terminals). Nothing. A tiny spark (really small?!) but not movement. In desparation, I left the ignition on, and jumped between the battery +ve, and the starter motor. Engine bursts into life! At this point, I'm late for work so I get on (not forgetting to pocket the handy length of wire, just in case...) and ride off. Bike runs perfect all the way to work. No other troubleshooting done yet. No FI indications, just C00 all the way.
So if it's running, then the CKPS must be OK, right? This solenoid deserves some investigation. I'll try jumping from battery +ve to the solenoid 'output' too to check the wiring between solenoid and starter motor.
Any other ideas? :shrug:
EDIT: just been out to have a play. It's all working fine now - it's dried up a bit, so I'm thinking connections somewhere. Unfortunately, I left my multimeter turned on, so it's now dead :bawl:
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Yeah, it's small stuff, but annoying if I have to hotwire the bike each time it rains :)
There is no FI error at the moment (the bike is dry) and while the engine is running there's no issues.
I'm thinking worst case - some crap on the CKPS itself (entirely possible, it has just been rebuilt. In a garden...) giving a weak signal until the engine turns over, then it's cleaned off with oil. Or maybe just dirty connections (more likely, as the bike appears to be fine when dry, not fine when wet... but that doesn't explain why the bike runs fine once it's going? Perhaps there's enough signal there to run, but the ECM is more picky on startup?). In either case, the engine should still turn over, if not start. But it doesn't, so something's up there.
Can the ECM stop the bike turning over/starter running? Looks from the wiring diagram that it's possible, but also that the solenoid shouldn't click if that's the case. Wouldn't be inconcevable that both the CKPS and starter solenoid have issues.
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Your most likely problem is a connection on one of the large battery cables at either end of the cable or between solenoid and starter motor. The ECM isn't going to stop the starter motor when the solenoid is shorted. A marginal connection can cause FI errors by dropping the voltage to a sensor out of range.
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Sounds like bad earth or corroded lead some where, do you know how to do a volt drop test?
Using a volt meter set to handle 12 volts connect in parallel with the wire or part you suspect. There should be no more than half a volt reading MAX
e.g connect to bat positive and starter pos connector, try to start and check reading if no reading check the earth side I.e bat neg to starter case
hope you can make sense of this
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A voltmeter may not detect a marginal connection. It can look fine with no load but fail when a working load is applied and the starter is a very big load.
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Sorry, none of the above replies flagged this topic as 'unread' to me :shrug:
As it's been dry for ages, the bike has been starting fine with no issues, so I've not had a chance to really troubleshoot. A voltage drop test was one of the first things I done, but I could find no problems.
This morning however, was a little damp... and the bike refused to start. Same symptoms. Unfortunately, I was late for work, so decided just to get it running rather than do a full diag.
Top box off, seat off, 'special tool' (length of wire) ready... first, I try shorting the solenoid (it's raining, and I don't really want to kneel under the bike to reach the starter)... a few sparks, not much else, until my little boy shouts "smoke!" Huh? he's pointing at the starter, and the 'smoke' is just a wisp of steam. I try again, looking at the starter... a few sparks from the wire, and yes - definitely some steam coming from the connection to the starter motor! A closer look reveals the water around the connection boiling, and a nice purple glow radiating from the connection. That'll be the problem then (I thought 12V shouldn't discharge like that?) I jump the bike again (battery +ve direct to the starter motor) and it starts fine.
Now at work, I have a better look. The bike dried off on the way, but has since sat in the carpark having a 'wash', so is wet again. I'm still getting that corona discharge around the connection. Could be a marginal connection plus salt doing that. It's pretty, but obviously not optimal :haha: No time to do much more at the moment, but I'll have a proper look once I'm home :)
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It appears to be fixed :)
Took the starter motor connection off the other night, and found it coated in a nice protective salt film :haha: Cleaned it all off (tesco value coke is fantastic for this sort of thing - not too aggressive unlike 'real' coke) dried up, put it all back together...
After a few more days of rain and wet, everything seems perfect :)
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Post now preserved as the 2013 best post.