Wish they'd stop doing this

[frez]

The best way to resolve the argument whether you were right or not or whether the car driver was at fault or not is to show the video to Mr traffic plod and let him advise.

It doesn't matter who was right or wrong if you end up injured. Never trust your safety in other people doing the right thing.

[Ptarmigan]

It doesn't matter who was right or wrong if you end up injured. Never trust your safety in other people doing the right thing.

 :text-+1: Frez  

[ProfG]

It doesn't matter who was right or wrong if you end up injured. Never trust your safety in other people doing the right thing.

It seems there is some misunderstanding here. I did not mean for the person to be arrogant in that they had the right of way or whatever; the idea was to stop the arrogance that was in previous posts by getting it sorted through a proper medium that could advise on what was the proper procedure.

I fully concur that riders should assume that all drivers are out to get them and that many drivers will do anything to get the better of a motorcycle, and that the rider should never put himself/herself in a position that could compromise their safety. However, by being arrogant and claiming the right of way can only lead to a sorry state.

In the above video we can see that there was ample time for the rider to accelerate away from the car, but he failed to do so and provided the opportunity for the driver to behave in an arrogant manner. I would say the rider provided the opportunity for the driver in this instance.

All riders should ride as defensively as possible within the context of the situation that they are in and not aggravate the situation whether they are right or wrong.

As far as I am concerned, this is the end of the matter and I will not enter into any other discussion about it. I also suggest that the original poster should seriously consider doing an IAM course and become an IAM advanced rider and will be able to 'read' or try and foresee the possible consequences of various manoeuvres. It certainly helps save a lot of grief.

[jabmotorsport]

Already looked into ROSPA... Think that's the way to go .. already done the enhanced rider scheme too.

Feel much safer on a track with a bunch of nutters than on a road with people

[frez]

Blame is not black and white in this case, your points are well made, but you fail to mention the car driver's responsibility, as the highway code states:

"168: Being overtaken. If a driver is trying to overtake you, maintain a steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass. Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass. Speeding up or driving unpredictably while someone is overtaking you is dangerous. Drop back to maintain a two-second gap if someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front of you."

Sections 162 to 167 apply to the overtaker and the rider's shortcomings in these respects are covered by your post.

All in all I believe we can agree that the scenario demonstrates issues that inexperienced riders get themselves into, why inexperienced riders pay more for insurance, and why advanced training is worth investing in.

[Juvecu]

With you blokes fighting over whose fault/responsibility it is you'll cause new riders to not post things like this and consequently not getting good advice on how to handle the scenario in the future. Remember, you were a new & inexperienced rider at some point too, you weren't born knowing it all. Give your opinion on what would be best to do in this scenario based on your experience, that will help the new rider. Stop arguing about who's fault it is and who's to blame, that isn't helping anyone

/grumpy mode off

[frez]

Not wanting to inflame the matter, but there are ways and ways of putting a message across. Constructive and supportive is great, accusing and negative, not so much.

[LondonIrish]

From a slightly different perspective I'm a new rider and only starting to get to grips with filtering. I really found this useful. Cases were well made. I'm reminded that when we filter not everyone thinks "god, I wish I had a bike". Some will think "queue jumpers not getting past me".  Good lesson learnt.  Thanks for posting this one. Anyway that's my tuppence.

[Jacko]

Filtering is an art, and a privilege, not a right.. Be nice, if you're unsure then just take your place in the queue, wait for an opportunity then move on.. Sometimes a chap will filter past you when you think there's no room, chances are he's been doing it longer, you'll be there one day..

Remember, be nice..

[Fatbelly]

It's also really, really, important to remember that car drivers have large blind spots right where you are when you are filtering. You can never assume that he has seen you, some of the time he simply won't be able to.

If you don't know about cars' blind spots, sit in a car and have a pal walk around behind you, you can hide a bus in there sometimes!

Any overtaking move should be quick and decisive within reason - the longer it takes the more chance of a difficulty arising.

[Jacko]

Blind spots are usually covered by checking the area that the mirror doesn't cover with your eyes. I know this may sound like some kind of sorcery but you can look in the area your mirror doesn't cover to see if there is actually anything lurking in the mythical blind spot.. I've taken many minutes in the past to perfect this magic and I now have the ability to see all that surrounds my car with deft use of my neck muscles and my brain.. Would that all were so talented..

[Juvecu]

+1 to all that's been said about blind spots

I'd also emphasise to pretend that no one has seen you even if you're not in their blind spot and then pretend even harder that they haven't seen you when you are going to be in their blind spot. After a while the 'pretending' becomes habit and you can do it without much thought and focus more attention on other possible hazards. I've had people open doors in front of me in standing traffic while I was filtering, those were close calls.

Something to watch for is people quickly changing lanes to get into the correct lane when traffic slows. You're getting ready to filter, they swap lane, often without the slightest of warning, it's a recipe for disaster. I tend to avoid this situation by slowing more than the traffic in front of me (when I see it's going to queue) so they have time to do the stupid stuff they might do before I get to them. Check behind when you do that though, some idiots don't slow down until the last moment and don't always expect you to slow down slower than the traffic they might see ahead of you. I frequently flash the brake light a few times to get their attention.

Lots of this is stuff you can learn by yourself, but it's so much quicker if you have people telling you what to look for to get you started and in the right mind set.

With the good weather I'd also add to look out for other bikes, some people are real muppets for thinking they have the riding skills they had when they put their bikes away at the first hint of cold weather last year. You'll easily spot the difference between a rusty summer rider and one that knows they need to get used to their bike again, the latter group are likely to live longer

[frez]

Another one you might get caught by is someone deciding to do a u-turn because they can't be bothered to wait in the queue.

A rare one that fortunately didn't end in tears was after entering a national speed limit someone at the front of four cars decided they were going the wrong way and slowed to do a u-turn as I has overtaking the cars behind him. Although I don't think that is something anyone could plan for.

[Jacko]

Cars slowing down ahead of you for no apparent reason should set alarm bells ringing, those bells help you plan. Don't overtake a line of cars that seem to have just stopped for nothing unless you can determine the reason, cars don't normally just stop for nothing, most of the time it's a car turning right off the main road, you don't want that to happen when you get to the front..

Regarding lane changers when filtering, keep an eye out for car sized gaps in the lanes you're riding between, it's an early warning that someone might want to be in that gap by the time you get there..

[loggamatt]

Not sure there's any issue here really is there? bloke posts a video asking what he did wrong, you all told him (hesitation), so lesson learnt

I do think a lot of experienced motorcyclists forget what a steep learning curve there is for new riders and don't give us new riders enough of a break sometimes. Speaking from my own experience, I'm finding filtering the hardest thing to learn how to do on two wheels. Luckily (or unluckily depending on your point of view), I live in London so at least get to practice it a hell of a lot!

But my experience of filtering past other road users is that car drivers, as a breed, tend to be fairly passive and accepting of it. Yes, every now and then you get an idiot in a Merc, BMW or Audi (I usually don't like to stereotype, but yes, it is ALWAYS one of these kinds of cars) suddenly act like they're in a race with you... but on the whole, that's pretty rare.

The road users that make filtering hell for me are....... *drum roll*......... motorcyclists In my experience, woe betide you if you're filtering through traffic and another motorcyclist comes up behind you and thinks you could be filtering a bit quicker. The number of times I've had another motorcycle riding as aggressively as they can (practically wheel to wheel sometimes) to make the point that I should speed up is shocking. Now I'm sure that sounds like I must be the slowest bloke on the road, but I swear I come up behind motorcycles filtering more cautiously and slower than I am all the time. When I do, I accept it, give them plenty of space and only overtake them when I think I can do so without startling them.

These days, if I'm filtering and another motorcycle comes up behind me acting like a tool, I just pull out of their way as soon as I can... it's just not worth the hassle. It's dangerous enough filtering past traffic and keeping your wits about you for a car driver suddenly changing direction without having to second guess an arsehole on a bike too.

But anyway, my point is this... we are all on a learning curve. If you're filtering and get held up a little bit by another motorcycle, do try to think that he/she may be a new rider and remember what you were like at filtering when you were new to it. If you try to intimidate them, you could harry them into doing something dangerous or thinking that's the way riding a bike has to be.

To bring all this back on topic... I think experienced riders should give us new riders a break sometimes. What is obvious and 2nd nature to you may be completely new to us. Give the benefit of your experience because that's what we new riders need, but keep in mind that we're still learning and trying our best!!  

[Ptarmigan]

loggamatt  

[Jacko]

I agree. I often come across new or nervous riders in traffic, you can tell, and I'm fully aware that the presence of another motorcyclist can be intimidating, so I ride accordingly.. I want new riders to love their new brothers (and sisters), not think they're tossers..

[frez]

In my experience, woe betide you if you're filtering through traffic and another motorcyclist comes up behind you and thinks you could be filtering a bit quicker.

Early in my motorcycling I got a job in London for a couple of years so I know exactly what you are talking about. It takes a while to judge gaps you can fit through comfortably, and to get used to city traffic.

Just because someone is filtering quicker than you does not mean they are filtering dangerously, everyone has different levels of confidence and ability.

If you notice another biker behind you, he is almost certainly moving quicker than you as he caught you up, so when the opportunity arises simply move out of the way and wave him past, it is the polite thing to do, no need to get your knickers in a twist over it. Don't try and keep up or speed up to keep ahead, ride to your own ability not others.

I find other motorbikes are the hardest things to overtake in traffic as you are often not sure whether they have seen you or not, so the easier you can make it for faster filtering bikes to get past the more it will be appreciated, and hopefully other riders pay you back in kind when you catch up bikes that are filtering slower than you.

[Jacko]

Top post ^.

[loggamatt]

Frez - totally agreed!

Sorry, didn't mean to give them impression that I think anyone moving faster than I am on the road is automatically an arsehole, but reading back my post I can see how I may have come across that way

If I'm filtering and see another bike behind me I absolutely always give them space to come past when I think it's safe and I have enough room to do so. I do this for two reasons, 1) because, as you say, it's only polite, and 2) because it gives me an opportunity to learn from them. I'm always careful not to go into a gap just because another motorcyclist has done so and to make judgements for myself, but it's still always interesting to me to see the decision making that other motorcyclists make, and watching another rider filter through traffic is great for that.

But as you know, in London there isn't always a gap for me to instantly make space for another rider to overtake me... sometimes it takes a little while for me to find a safe gap for me to make space to let them through. The ones who wait patiently for me to do so I have no problem with, but the ones who try to intimidate me into pulling into non-existant gaps do irritate me.

The other thing that always amazes me about filtering in London is that 9 times out of 10 if I move aside to let a faster motorcyclist through, I end up sat beside him anyway at the next set of lights or the set of lights after that. I've also ended up re-overtaking motorcycles who tried to intimidate me out of the way when they've made the wrong filtering decision and got stuck and I've made the right one (that turned out to be quicker) a little further up the road plenty of times. In my opinion, although I can see why it's frustrating to be stuck behind someone else who hasn't gone for a gap that you would have, in reality even if you had gone for the gap it probably wouldn't have shortened your journey time by much.

As with all things, it's risk/reward... is the reward of possibly getting to your destination a few seconds quicker worth the risk of intimidating a less experienced motorcyclist to do so?  Again, I'm not saying that all experienced motorcyclists do try to intimidate slower riders, it's definitely the minority and quite possibly doesn't apply to anyone here, but it's still a sizeable minority in London anyway.

In my view, everyone should be polite to everyone else on the road. Experienced riders should be patient with inexperienced riders, and inexperienced riders should try not to hold up experienced riders any more than they have to.