Do eco systems work?

[1monkey1]

I have just finished wiring a eco heating system.
Amazing bit of kit.
Ground Source Heat Pump, solar hot water, solid fuel stove heat recovery and air circulation heat recovery unit.
The fella must of spent a fortune on it.
Cat 5e cables from each stat to a Heatmiser UH1 and manifold, upstairs and down, plus one connected to heat pump heatmiser UH1 . All  Heatmiser UH1's  connected together by cat 5e cables. Six stat's upstairs seven down. In total 4 pumps, 5 zone valves, 9 cylinder stats, 1 solar over heat stat, 1 solar pump and a lot of head scratching.
Took 2 days to wire up. I have no idea if it works, plumber not finished.
I asked the fella how it all worked. He explained about the solar and ground source heat pump, then added if there is not enough temp in the solar and heat pump to run the system.
Wait for it. Now this is the genius part of the system.
You turn on the immersion heater  

Its the 2nd eco system I have done. 1st one was a air recovery unit. worked like a fridge but in reverse,
It heated the hot water and underfloor heating. Guess what happens if the heat exchanger could not produce enough to heat the water.
Yep that's right it turned on a .... are you ready .
9 Kw immersion heater  

So do they work or are they just a expensive gimmick?

[TLPower]

According to "You and Yours" on radio 4 pretty much. Being a dim tanker driver, I can only remember the "gist", that being, the amount of energy needed to operate the system far exceeded the amount it produced.

And another thing, when Kevin returns to one of his "grand designs"using some eco heating mallarkey, the occupants are normally seen to be  wearing coats and hats inside their houses.

And very grateful for the film crews lighting, 'cos it's dark as well.

[tallpaul]

I like watching grand designs on the odd occasion and it does look like they spend a fortune trying to save a little bit of money installing these systems. You can still do your bit for the environment by putting on a jumper and turning down your normal heating system (my missus doesn't get that bit). I think the the moral of this story is that living on the low carbon moral high ground is cold and dark place to be!

[TLPower]

Tall Paul that really made I larf.

Many thanks.

[SnowStrom]

Ahhh the glory days of IF YOU'RE COLD THEN SHUT THAT BLOODY DOOR AND PUT A JUMPER ON YOU WEREN'T BORN IN A BARN DO YOU THINK I'M MADE OF MONEY (continued p.94)

[Sharpy]

I think a lot depends on when you get the systems installed, get them done when the building is built and they do offer good savings, get them fitted to an "old" system and they are not as good.

My parents got a air source heat pump fitted to their new build barn conversion, it took a few months to get set up properly but now it is and they are making significant savings and have had no issues of it being too cold, they have a wood burner as well but its far from essential, the heat pump will work to -30degs.

Where they live everyone has oil fired heating and that is very expensive from memory about £1500 a year just for hot water and central heating, my folks electric bill is half that for heating, hot water and everything else.

They are good and do work well, but try and retrofit them to an old system and they do not work very well at all.

[Sharpy]

I think the the moral of this story is that living on the low carbon moral high ground is cold and dark place to be!

For my folks it was not about the moral high ground more about the cost of oil being so high and volatile, eco systems do work pretty well they did a lot of research first, and I will admit I was nervous about them getting something so untested (in the UK at least) but they spend less a year on a 4 bed barn than I do on a 3 bed semi so it must be working well.

[MartinW]

I am a lot warmer than I was two years ago due to the three stone of lard insulation I have spread around my bones. When done correctly it works wonders.

[tallpaul]

I am a lot warmer than I was two years ago due to the three stone of lard insulation I have spread around my bones. When done correctly it works wonders.

And you get the added enjoyment of creating the insulation by eating all manner of tasty treats! Result!

[hookie]

Here in France heat pump systems from small single units that can either work as a heater or cooler to complete ground or river based systems are very common. All the DIY stores and even some supermarkets sell them. The simple systems seem to work very well and are easy to fit and for a system with a 4KW heat output only use about 1KW to run. The big all singing and dancing systems can cost up to 30,000 Euros to install and are even more efficient. I know of a couple of people who have them and they are great when working but a nightmare when playing up or needing specialist service work. The technology is not new though. My late dad new someone who had one in Norwich before the last war, taking it's heat from the river Wensum...

[tallpaul]

The big all singing and dancing systems can cost up to 30,000 Euros to install and are even more efficient.

I can buy a lot of gas and electric for 30k. Probably more than I will need for the rest of my life! OK, I'm exaggerating a little!
I'd like a house that has a fast running stream at the bottom of the garden. I'd install a water wheel hooked up to a generator!

[kwackboy]

I also watch grand designs and wonder what all the fuss is about when installing these so called eco systems, 30k is alot, I mean how long would 30k last paying for gas and lekky ..? . Are they really environmentally friendly when mentioned before you can just turn down your heating or lights and put a few more layers on , in my book that's far more efficient .
The more gadgets you have the more there is to go wrong . False economy .

[Juvecu]

30k is a lot now and it might seem that you can't possibly spend that much on heating in the near to mid term future. The problem is that heating costs aren't a constant. If the eco system you're installing works, your heating effectively becomes cheaper each time everyone else's heating bill rises because some executive in an oil and/or gas company think 30 billion profit a year still isn't enough and wants more.

That said, even if I build a new home I wouldn't be spending 30k on a heating system. Put in a decent cheap system now, there will be advancements and you can replace it later with something better when it comes along. If you throw all your money at it now then you're 'stuck' with it when they've significantly improved the technology/efficiency in, say, 10 year's time.

We can build houses that can cost less than £100 a year to heat and they aren't even expensive compared to normal houses. What I don't get is why we don't do that instead of all these poorly insulated and ventilated boxes we all live in at the moment.

[Sharpy]

30k is an extreme, the one my folks had installed was significantly cheaper than that, it was well rated and works very well, they reckoned they would be in profit in 3 years, so this winter...

[2112]

I deal with 'renewables' daily, all have big drawbacks. PV's lose output annually and the inverters don't last forever and they obviously only work in daylight. Solar thermal is OK for taking the edge off the incoming water but that's all. Ground source heat pumps have huge starting currents often requiring a 3 phase supply and the additional expense that incurs while air source heat pumps get marginal below 5 degrees. All rely on back up resistive heaters (immersion) usually in 3kW multiples depending on the system. Any savings can be lost very quickly over a short period if you spank the immersion heaters.
The best way to save dosh is to over insulate and spend less money in heating the property in the first place. I got that tip from a renewables Engineer at NaREC while delivering a course for work. See the website for more eco ideas - http://www.narec.co.uk/

[Sharpy]

The best way to save dosh is to over insulate and spend less money in heating the property in the first place.

This is the key, I must mention my folks place is super insulated as well!

[tallpaul]

This is the key, I must mention my folks place is super insulated as well!

Makes sense. To go to such lengths to harvest the energy, then it will pay dividends to try and retain it as effectively as possible.

[SnowStrom]

spank the immersion heaters

See? You can keep warm with vigorous spanking and then you don't need all these fancy systems :D

[tallpaul]

See? You can keep warm with vigorous spanking and then you don't need all these fancy systems :D

As the good Lord says "It is better to give, than to receive."

[2112]

If it gets really cold you can then spank them 'like a ginger stepson'. Should keep the cold nicely at bay