Electric Motorbikes

[NeilM]

I know this is a more divisive subject even than Chinese bikes, but it is an area of technology I like to keep an eye on.

To this end, I am on the email list of the English Electric Motor Co. And it was in their latest newsletter that I spotted something that may have been there before, but maybe it had passed me by... s/h bikes, with brand new batteries.

Now, a s/h bike with a sensible mileage and a brand new battery is an interesting idea and certainly makes for a much cheaper EV bike purchase, but the bikes on offer are only a few years old, typically five, so the question that crosses my mind is... do the current technology EV bikes need a completely new battery system every 4, 5, 6 years? If so.... WUT!

I am more than well aware that for 99% of motorcyclists, EV's don't work, too expensive, too short on range, etc etc, but for regular commuters who live maybe 20 to 50 miles from work or who jump between office and site, or office to office then EV's have a lot going for them.... provided you don't have to stump up a couple of grand every 5 years for batteries.

I will certainly continue watching with interest.

[Upt North]

Oh Neil what have you done, the worms are out of the can now, all over the shop.
I haven't checked to see what the deal is but I suspect it's down to consumer confidence rather than essential maintenance. As for how long anything lasts that has got to be down to care, use and correct operation, but that's not just for batteries. Plus of course the original quality of the product.
The Chinese bike thing is an interesting one, because in reality we are all riding, driving and generally using Chinese products everyday. That Japanese, American or European product is full of Chinese stuff. I'm sure some of the stuff is dire but does anyone remember being stranded by that dark lord Lucas.
Certainly in the States lots of them are adamant they would never buy Chinese but they will gladly buy products full of their products.
Strange innit.
But to conclude I have no room or use in my life for an electric vehicle at this time.
Upt.

[StromGeeza]

Electric motorbikes are very sensible for people who do predictable journeys, like a regular commute. Charging at home overnight at a few pence per kWh makes the 'fuel' cost cheaper than peanuts. All the usual eco benefits too.

The naysayers who want to (even if just in theory) bike to the Alps once every few years will never be impressed, but for many users they are a perfect transport solution.

For me personally, electric cars are perfect for my 4 wheel transport needs (we have no less than 3 EVs in our household). For my 2 wheel transport needs, electric bikes would be absolutely ideal for my commute, but not some of the other trips I do on two wheels. So not for me, just yet, but I'm watching these kind of developments closely.

[UK_Vstrom650]

I think the Japanese brands have agreed a common battery standard, and there's talk you'll be able to swap batteries at charge stations, so take a charged one and leave yours behind on charge.
Makes sense in the eastern markets where scooters etc dominate transport, but whether that will transfer to Europe and the UK...

[Brockett]

In 2022 the price of domestic electricity more than doubled in a few short weeks and have remained almost as high ever since (thank Mr Putin for that one).
Petrol, on the other hand, did shoot up, but pretty soon dropped back to where it would have been, subject of course to normal uk inflation.   Future UK power will cost more and more in the future due to the UK govt inspired pricing structure. (it doesn't matter how cheap it is to produce, it is sold at the world market price!!!) Electric cars and bikes may not be such a good idea. Oh! yes and I hear they all going to have to pay road tax from 2025.

[joethebike]

Does any one follow MarcTravels on YouTube? His German made EV has made it from Germany to India with a range of 300km max and the number of stops to charge may not be acceptable to many in this rushed world.
But he shows it can be done.

[Mark Shelley]

Never ridden an electric motorcycle but I have ridden electric pushbikes. I think they great, but I have a problem with buying anything either new or from a dealer and I have a fear that as soon as I shelled out my hard earned cash on one a new, far superior version, would be announced. That is why I haven’t bought a brand new car, motorcycle or pushbike since 1983. Giving in to the desire to have the latest thing is just putting back your possible retirement date.

[NeilM]

It could well be that the new batteries are there to reassure the next owners of the bikes that they are not buying worn out batteries, something I think Marc (Travels) experienced. I am properly interested in how EV's develop as there are times when for a lot of the local journeys I do, a 125cc equivalent EV bike like the Super SOCO would be just the job.   

I will continue to watch for now, as even if I wanted another bike, at present I don't have the cash.

On the anti Chinese sentiment often seen in reviews. It really is complete nonsense, as there is no way of knowing where the various chips, wires, switches etc on your computer / phone / washing machine / car were made or for that matter the clothes you are wearing or the furniture you have in your house.

[kwackboy]

I have seen / riden and MOT'd lots of Electric motorcycles and my opinion is this ..

They're a load of shite ..

Real world Battery range is awful and their build quality even worse. 

Yes, if you live in a the city they're handy but they're built for our modern day throw away society so if you've got money to waste, buy one ... 

[2112]

Like StromGeeza we also have 3 EV's in our household (well OK, just 2 if you don't count the lawnmower...) and one is Chinese, one Korean and one American (the Lawnmower). The most troublesome is the lawnmower which has a number of design flaws, but still works OK and cuts grass, but could be a lot better. Second is the Korean Kia, it has a few minor niggles and then my MG EV5 which just works. Not conclusive but just an observation. It is still MUCH cheaper to run an EV than a petrol or diesel car IF you charge at home. If you have to use a commercial charger it can be about the same cost, but servicing and tax are a lot less. As EV's start to pay road tax in 2025, has anyone thought how much all the other tax brackets will be going up by ?

I have looked into an EV bike but the range & charging rate are a bit dissapointing, as is the depreciation. We haven't quite got our heads around EV bikes yet so they plummet in value at an alarming rate. I know the UK Director of Zero Motorcycles (Dale Robinson) quite well and he doesn't live far away from me in Northumberland. He's a keen advocate of EV biking and has done a lot of miles around the UK & Europe on one, the Zero Black Forest edition if I remeber correctly.

The newer Lithium battery chemistry is starting to be installed in EV's now and will make a big difference. Most EV's are based on Lithium Ion technology, like phones etc and this has a finite number of 'cycles'. A cycle is the change of state from charge to discharge & vice versa, limiting life span. Lithium Ion chemistry is not very happy when it's full and can expire if it's fully flattened, hence most EV drivers keep their batteries between 20% and 80% whenever possible. However, the Lithium Iron Phosphate batttery (liFePo4) has significantly improved the number of cycles, charge rate and thermal stability. This type of battery chemistry is virtually impossible to catch fire by 'thermal runaway', even when damaged, due to it's inherently inert nature. Following hot on the heels of the LiFePo4 batteries are the solid state batteries, these promise even faster charging times, more range (higher energy density) and a significant increase in the number of cycles they can achieve, even relative to LiFePo4. These may be the answer to making the electric motorcycle viable for more people as they will allow rapid charging, relatively low mass and high energy density. They can be mass produced and have very few 'precius' materials present. The UCLA are working on an aluminium 'battery' that uses aluminium rods as 'fuel' to create energy. These would be very cheap and easy to replace and you could even carry a few spares as they would be light. Technology is moving very fast in the EV world, so now is not quite the right time for the EV bike, but useful and useable ones are coming.

[NeilM]

2112. Next time you are chatting with Dale from Zero, please tell him from me that their business model of charging customers extra to buy features that already exist within the bike (extra power, faster charging etc) totally SUCKS.

I think BMW had a go at this a while back and KTM are trying it on presently, allowing the customer to have all the bells and whistles for the first 900 miles and then turning them all off. If you want them back, each has to be purchased.

This probably works well for pcp / personal lease customers but if I pay for a bike, then it's mine, all of it including every bell, whistle, farkle and gizmo it left the factory with.

I know Tesla do it too, but I wouldn't touch one of them with a barge pole either.

[Hugo Magnus]

I would be quite concerned by the fire risk of electric bikes. This would be reflected in the insurance cost.
Any one know if there is an extra premium for electric bikes?

[2112]

2112. Next time you are chatting with Dale from Zero, please tell him from me that their business model of charging customers extra to buy features that already exist within the bike totally SUCKS.

I'll probably see him tonight as I'm out in Morpeth, I shall pass this on 

[2112]

I would be quite concerned by the fire risk of electric bikes.

As a percentage, petrol & diesel cars catch fire more than EV's, so no extra premium. I know this only because as my company have taken over 1GW of battery storage through planning permission in England, Scotland & Wales. The fire risk question ALWAYS comes up from the NIMBY brigade, but easily negated by science & facts.

[Brockett]

Good luck with that in a post truth era where myth triumphs over science and facts are shouted down by the social media mob.

[Dark-Strom]

4 wheels with any drivetrain is just transport, moves the body from A to B.
2 wheels and an ICE (hybrid included) move the soul.
2 wheels and an electric motor are best fitted with a hose for cleaning the carpet...
I would only ever go hybrid at best on 2 wheels, otherwise I'd pack it in...

[Rusty Nuts]

I'd happily ride an electric motorcycle if I could do exactly the same as I do on my petrol bike. Range, performance, handling. And if the numbers made sense. Price, fuelling/charging, battery life, general running & maintenance costs.
Since they swapped my diesel van for an electric one, I've come to look at e-vehicles differently. Even though I still reckon the current crop are an evolutionary dead end. Sadly I'll be too old for a bike by the time they've got it right.

[Brockett]

I think the first electric vehicle I buy will be a disabillity thing    Although my wife has often suggested and electric chair.

[sm]

Had a Zero on loan for a day. Fantastic to ride, twist and go with lots of instant torque. Utterly awful range, totally impractical for my type of riding - days out of 100-250 miles and a couple of trips to Europe each year which are typically 250-300 mile days. But, even though the torque delivery is really nice, there’s something missing, that feeling of getting the engine and gears working just right. I guess once the battery tech moves on and addresses crap range, they will be a better mode of transport. But for me, a motorcycle is not a means of transport.