Another BMW disaster...

[Gassoon]

Loggamatt, can you at least consider the possibility that you are succumbing to a desire to believe the hype of the BMW? I ask you that in all honesty. It seems that your hypothesis that BMW's are fabulous is non-falsifiable - every shred of evidence that they are not becomes simply included into your fantasy. Now you are virtually trying to argue that the very fact of their unreliability is some kind of proof that they are excellent!
Motorcycles are constructed artifacts, not bits of software - BMW does not flog their new bikes as 'beta' versions!

Ask yourself: have you simply become a believer, who discards or distorts the evidence which does not serve your beliefs? I know you could turn that around upon me or other sceptics and accuse us of confirmation bias - but there seems to be a weight of evidence, doesn't there?

Of course, you might just be playing devils advocate !

EDIT: damn, those last posts came before I could get this one sent. Obviously you aren't playing devils advocate. Oh dear.

I see your points about it coming down to what you want from a bike...but there's a bigger picture which comes down to what sort of biker any individual is. I wouldn't have a current BMW to protect my dignity and sense of worth as a motorcyclist, given the way the marque is operated, and the spell-glamour they try to put over their potential customers. I do not care if the suspension is better and the instruments posher etc...this does not equate with what I would lose in terms of my self-respect for buying such a machine.

[loggamatt]

Loggamatt, can you at least consider the possibility that you are succumbing to a desire to believe the hype of the BMW? I ask you that in all honesty. It seems that your hypothesis that BMW's are fabulous is non-falsifiable - every shred of evidence that they are not becomes simply included into your fantasy. Now you are virtually trying to argue that the very fact of their unreliability is some kind of proof that they are excellent!
Motorcycles are constructed artifacts, not bits of software - BMW does not flog their new bikes as 'beta' versions!

Ask yourself: have you simply become a believer, who discards or distorts the evidence which does not serve your beliefs? I know you could turn that around upon me or other sceptics and accuse us of confirmation bias - but there seems to be a weight of evidence, doesn't there?

Again, "my opinion is that the DL650 is a more reliable and better value motorcycle than the BMW R1200GS, but isn't as much fun to ride. That is my personal opinion after riding both bikes and I think it is realistic about the pros and cons of both motorcycles."

I wouldn't have a current BMW to protect my dignity and sense of worth as a motorcyclist, given the way the marque is operated, and the spell-glamour they try to put over their potential customers. I do not care if the suspension is better and the instruments posher etc...this does not equate with what I would lose in terms of my self-respect for buying such a machine.

And I don't really give a damn what my choice of motorcycle marque says about me as a motorcyclist. I just want to enjoy riding motorcycles. I guess if you're the sort of person who cares about what everyone else thinks of you, I could see why you would not want to ride a BMW.

[MartinW]

Matt - You just had a two week trip round Europe on your bike, wrote up a fantastic trip report and it sounds like you had a great time other than for one little thing. You felt out of place in Bellagio as it was really a site for couples and you were travelling alone.

Now imagine you were doing that trip on a GS and because the "thingy" broke, you had to stay in Bellagio for another four days while someone looked for one that still works, then you had to speed back by the straightest route to get back to work on the Monday.

[Tusker]

I own and ride a 30 year old Yamaha XS 1100.. the fact that I can is testimony to the Japs engineering prowess in the 80,s  I can rev to 10,000 in all five gears and it pulls like a train, also it is uber reliable !!! is this why I own it ??   no ,, it makes me smile ,, I enjoy riding it ... However , it corners like a snooker table and drinks fuel like its an addict... Would you like it    probably not  

Logga makes a good point ,, its whatever your priorities are...........now I accept that if I had a GS and it broke down ever 5 miles I would sell it,, but fact is that's not realistic,, I ride with a friend who has one and its never yet broken down... plus he loves it, it makes him smile...


anyway I guess I'm saying live and let live  

[loggamatt]

Martin, that's a risk and I'm realistic about that...

(though, I will say on the whole I liked Lake Como... just one particular night I felt a little maudlin)

... but maybe I would have enjoyed the 5 days before that riding through the Alps more because I enjoyed riding the bike more? I'd have loved to have the brakes on that BMW GS I test rode while I was in the Alps in particular.

Maybe the bike breaks down and it only takes the BMW dealer 1 day to fix it? Or maybe it breaks down so badly that I have to get the bike shipped back to the UK and have to cancel my trip altogether?

These are all hypotheticals though, and people on this forum talk like they're absolutely certain to happen. Which is not the case... I saw plenty of GS's happily riding around the Alps without a problem. The reality is, there is a greater risk of these things happening on the GS than there is on the Glee, and you have to be realistic about that and have a conversation with yourself about the level of risk you're prepared to accept on your trip.

Assuming that the 2015MY GS is more reliable than the 2013MY GS (and I would do my research before purchasing to make sure the signs were that this was the case) I probably would be prepared to risk it on a tour of the Alps in order to enjoy myself more in the saddle. But I absolutely wouldn't ever take a BMW R1200GS on a proper RTW trip because I wouldn't trust it to be reliable enough for the job. I probably wouldn't take a Glee either mind... possibly an XT660Z.

Again, I think I'm pretty realistic about all this aren't I?

[mr_diver]

What Gassoon said  

And developing a car... most are designed these days as joint operation. And almost always developed from the last outgoing model.

My mrs just bought a Nissan Quashqui 2.0 Turbo Diesel
Made by a Japanese company
Built in Sunderland
Designed In London
Frame is used on the Renault Megane, Scenic, kangoo, Nissan Quashqui, X-trail and Sentra.
Engine was jointly developed buy Renault and Nissan and used in various capacities and the block was made for petrol and diesel options in various models across both ranges.
So yes it costs peanuts per company to design.

But I must admit I bought a 30 year old Jap bike (off a member on here who won't be named) **JUVECU** and after 500 miles it fell apart... but has been neglected by nearly all of it previous 21 owners  
And I sit in my cold damp garage, spanner in hand swearing at the thing and when I think of the 500 miles of grins it gave me I still smile, but I wouldn't accept it from a modern bike I wanted to ride every day.

And yes I also admit BMW may knock out a good one now and again, but it's the concerns I have about buying one whether new or second hand is do I get a good one or a friday afternoon special.  

[Gassoon]

loggamatt said:

I guess if you're the sort of person who cares about what everyone else thinks of you, I could see why you would not want to ride a BMW

Ooooooh! I don't give much of a toss what others think of me...maybe I didn't stress the 'self-respect' and 'sense of worth' enough

At the end of the day, its what tusker said, live and let live. If it makes you happy etc

But having said that, it does make me feel a bit weird, like you see the world of motorcycling in such a different way - feels like we're talking at cross-purposes most of the time!

[MartinW]

Good Olde 2112 - Lob in a grenade and then go off to bed.

By the way, the Lexus corners like a blancmange on pram wheels.

[loggamatt]

Hehe... chaps, lets all take a chill pill as the kids say and relax here  

I understand the BMW hatred... I absolutely do. Charlie/Ewan - cocks; snooty BMW rider stereotypes; rich people using their touratech panniers to put their sandwiches in when they ride to their jobs in the city; people believing the German reliability hype when clearly it's not true.

I bet a lot of people on this forum have had BMW GS riders tell them that they should lose their Strom and get an 'ultimate riding machine' GS instead... which must be pretty irritating! Also, there are a few on here who have had bad experiences with BMWs in the past.

So this forum is generally a BMW GS unfriendly place, and I really do get that... and I'm happy to join in the banter now and then.

But the fact is, what you have here is a motorcyclist (me) saying variations on "I know the BMW GS is unreliable, but I really enjoyed riding it a lot and I am therefore interested in it. I haven't made my mind up yet, but I can't discount the fact that I really did enjoy my test ride" and you're all calling me unrealistic. I think I'm very realistic... the GS is probably less reliable than the bike I have now, but I enjoyed riding it. What's unrealistic about that?

You're all just annoyed because I'm ruining the fun and games of BMW GS bashing... so just ignore me, and get back to saying the GS is the devil and killed Kennedy (he was clearly hit in the head with a GS final drive shaft!)  

[Keith Cross]

Had a go on the latest BMW and while it was quite nice to ride I still went for the Aprilia Caponord 1200.  If anyone thinks the BMW is cutting edge just take a look at the Aprilia.  And after 300 miles in two days not a hint of trouble.  And looking at what other owners of this bike have found then I don't expect to either (I also have an Aprilia Dorsoduro 750 with 25,000 miles on it and no problems after a teething problem in the early day, caused in part by me dropping it in a ford).
The BMW does have new tech for them, but not to motorcycling as a whole and still they are having problems it seems.  Not sure why this is as BMW's used to be really good reliability wise.
I could even understand if a company like Aprilia which is very small compared to BMW, but for BMW to have problems on a bike that is priced at the premium end of the market (The GS to the same spec as the Caponord 1200 travel pack version is approx £3500 more money)
Pleased I steered well away form one.
As for the wee strom I had, terrific bike, just about enough power for touring and if you want tow a trailer too.  Fantastic fuel economy and reliable too.  If I wanted a bike that had to do it all including commuting then I would have another like a shot.
And if you want to ride an adventure bike that will really scare you, try the KTM 1190 Adventure.

Keith C

[Firestorm]

I say Chaps - steady down a bit eh? This is most one Vstrom Forum ish!
Matt - save up and buy one. If you're lucky you'll love it. I've ridden a few and yes, its faster, plusher, better brakes (handling is a moot point though as its more personal.) and more gizmos. Its also LOTS of money compared to quite a few alternatives but I've never had a problem with someone else spending what they like on er...what they like!
In the meantime, with tongue firmly in cheek, can I suggest that every 4th ride out on the Strom you stop and  push it for a few miles - just to get used to it in case you are unlucky?  

[loggamatt]

Keith - it may surprise everyone to know that the Aprilia Caponord is currently 1st on my list of new bikes I haven't test ridden it yet (will do soon), but on paper it seems like it will have everything I liked about the GS but without the reliability concerns (to the same extent anyway) and with a far lower price tag.

Oh, and Firestorm (& no doubt others) - don't worry, if I do buy a GS one day (like it I say, it's not first choice on my list, but it is on my list) I promise I will post a picture of me broken down by the side of the road for your amusement  

[Keith Cross]

loggamatt,

don't ride one unless you are prepared to buy one, they really are that good.  
Have a go on the travel pack version as this has all the bells and whistles, including the trick suspension.  Ask them to put it on auto as this has made the other settings redundant.
Bike handles really well for its weight (its a fair bit heavier than the wee strom but once on the move you don't notice it) and fuel consumption on mine over the first 300 odd miles is around 38 - 40 MPG.  Performance re sped etc is about the same as the new GS1200 and the Aprilia (for my tastes) handles better.  And all for £3500 less if you get the speced up GS.
One area the we strom is lots and lots better is the headlight.  Considering this bikes ability to munch the miles up, the headlight, particularly on main beam is pretty abysmal

Keith C

[loggamatt]

Seems like the GS would have better fuel economy, but this isn't necessarily the end of the world (as I say in another thread)... But other than that it does sound like a better bet to me as long as your riding is on road (which mine is).

Out of interest, have you used the cruise control yet? I hear it's a bit fiddly and basic... Which is one of the only negatives I've heard about the bike.

Can't afford to buy anything yet for at least 12 months unfortunately, so will have to stay strong! Want to know what's out there though... Plus if I start raving on here about the Caponord instead of the GS, I may soak up less hatred from other forum members

[Firestorm]

Matt - it really was 'tongue in cheek' and an attempt to lighten the mood of the posts! I really enjoyed my ride on the GS, found the handling a 'little odd' otherwise it was great. I don't want one but that's what makes motorcycling so interesting - lots of choice. As I say, not everyone suffers and if you're lucky you'll be a convert.
I'm looking forward to the reports of your numerous test rides  

[loggamatt]

Oh, I know Firestorm... I meant my response in good humour too

Though, I swear, if I do ever buy one I really will let people on here know when it breaks down... I'm man enough to take a deserved kicking in such a situation  

[Firestorm]

Good man!

[Keith Cross]

The cruise control is OK, and yes a bit basic (at least compared to the one on my 1990 1500 Goldwing) as to adjust speed you have to turn it off and re set it when you have got to the  required speed.

One other thing you may wish to consider is servicing costs compared to BMW prices.  The costs I have got from the dealer I got the bike from is:
6000 miles £200 ( Aprilia reckon 2 hours for this service)
12,000 miles £550 (Aprilia reckon 11 hours for this service)
18000 miles £200 ( Aprilia reckon 2 hours for this service)
24,000 miles £800 (Aprilia reckon 15 hours for this service)
Not a problem for me really as I am not using my bike for commuting any more and will probably struggle to get up to 6000 miles a year.
Also worth looking at is Wheels motorcycles in Peterborough give a life time warranty with their bikes (but not on KTM's, Ducati's and BMW's ), so as long as I own the bike and get it serviced by them I am covered if it goes wrong and get free MOT tests to boot

Keith C

[loggamatt]

wow... that seems really expensive! I guess BMW is more expensive though? Do Aprilia let you get it serviced at an independent? That's always the route I'd rather go if possible...

I liked BMW's cruise control when I tested the GS, but you all knew I'd say that, right?

Great deal on the lifetime warranty! I'll certainly check them out when I get closer to actually buying something.

[Keith Cross]

Legally Aprilia can not turn down a warranty claim if servicing is carried out by a competent mechanic who uses genuine spares.  However to do a lot of stuff on the bike you need the proper computer so my guess is they are only available to Aprilia dealers.
Check with your local Aprilia dealer though as they might be a lot cheaper.  saying that if the 24000 miles service is reckoned to be 15 hours then £800 is only around £53 an hour so not outrageously expensive (many car garages are now over £100 per hour)

Keith C